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The Accountant of Auschwitz Subtitles (2018)

Documentary
The Accountant of Auschwitz (2018)
MOVIE : The Accountant of Auschwitz (2018)
Oskar Gröning was one of the last surviving members of the SS to be implicated in Nazi crimes against humanity. Becoming known as the “Accountant of Auschwitz,” he was charged with the murder of 300,000 Jews after coming to wider attention for his appearance on the BBC documentary series Auschwitz: Inside the Nazi State (2005). When he took the stand in 2015, at the age of 94, his trial made headlines worldwide. The debate around his prosecution is at the center of this historic yet contemporary look at justice. As survivors travel to Germany to testify, the heinous acts of the Holocaust remain vivid and traumatic. For some, there is no room for debate: Gröning was witness and therefore complicit, regardless of his duty to follow orders. Others look at a frail man in the last years of his life and see no reason to pursue charges. Bringing war criminals to justice, with no statute of limitations, asks fundamental moral questions with few simple answers. From Nuremberg to the new …

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8148018/

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- Subtitles by explosiveskull

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<i>The main camp of
Auschwitz was like a small town,</i>

3
00:00:36,011 --> 00:00:38,051
<i>with its gossiping
and chatting.</i>

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<i>There was a canteen.</i>

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<i>There was a cinema.</i>

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<i>There was a sports club
of which I was a member.</i>

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<i>It was all fun
and entertainment,</i>

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<i>just like a small town.</i>

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<i>The special situation
at Auschwitz</i>

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<i>led to friendships,
of which I'm still saying today,</i>

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00:01:05,170 --> 00:01:07,370
<i>I like to look back on
with joy.</i>

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<i>We were convinced
by our world view</i>

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<i>that we had been betrayed
by the entire world,</i>

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<i>and that there was
a great conspiracy</i>

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<i>of the Jews against us.</i>

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<i>But surely
when it comes to children,</i>

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<i>you must have realized that they couldn't
possibly have done anything to you.</i>

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The children, they're not
the enemy at the moment.

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The enemy is the blood
inside them.

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<i> A former guard</i>
<i>at the notorious</i>

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Auschwitz concentration camp
has gone on trial in Germany.

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Oskar Groening is charged

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with more than 300,000 counts
of accessory to murder.

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<i>Groening is now 93 years old.</i>

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<i> My children grew up
knowing our family had a secret,</i>

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<i>a burden.</i>

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<i>They would ask me why they
don't have any grandparents,</i>

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<i>aunts, uncles.</i>

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<i>If I think about
my Holocaust experience,</i>

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<i>those few minutes
on the ramp in Auschwitz</i>

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<i>were really the defining
moments in my life.</i>

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<i>Try to imagine that
tomorrow someone comes and tells you,</i>

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<i>you have to leave your home,</i>

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<i>your parents are taken away,</i>

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<i>and you don't know
if you ever see them and when.</i>

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<i>And eventually it's over
and you live.</i>

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And then you find out
you're alone.

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You have no parents.

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You have no family.

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<i>Is it over, ever?</i>

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<i> I first heard</i>
<i>about Oskar Groening</i>

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<i>when Thomas Walther,
who was a former judge</i>

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<i>and an advocate,
a lawyer in Germany,</i>

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<i>approached me and told me
that he would like</i>

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<i>to talk to me about
my experience in Auschwitz</i>

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<i>in connection with a trial</i>

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<i>that is being held
for Oskar Groening.</i>

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I felt that, "What have I got to
do with this particular person?

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<i>I certainly didn't know him."</i>

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<i>I did a considerable amount
of thinking.</i>

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<i>You know, first of all,
I had to decide</i>

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<i>this question as to whether
a 94-year-old man</i>

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<i>who did this terrible deed</i>

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<i>seventy years before
is still guilty of the crime.</i>

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<i> The first time</i>
<i>I've heard of Oskar Groening</i>

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<i>was from Thomas.
He tried to convince me to come</i>

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<i>to Germany as a witness.</i>

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<i>At first, my gut reaction was,
"To Germany? No way.</i>

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Why would I go
and put myself through

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all the memories
and all the horrible feelings

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of being
a 16-year-old slave again?"

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<i>But Thomas was persistent.</i>

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<i>He said, "It's not only about Oskar
Groening, and you and the past,</i>

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it's about establishing
a precedent for the future."

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<i>Groening is very
old, but nobody was too old</i>

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<i>to be killed in Auschwitz.</i>

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If you take part in killing
as a 20-year-old man,

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<i>then you can be prosecuted
as a 50-year-old man,</i>

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<i>or also as a 90-year-old man.</i>

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Look, for a long time,

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I feel that I have
a responsibility

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as a survivor to make sure

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that this terrible event, the
Holocaust, should not be forgotten.

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<i>This trial
is a defining moment</i>

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<i>in the history
of the Holocaust.</i>

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<i>The fact that
so many Nazi perpetrators</i>

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<i>went unpunished after the war...
But Thomas told me</i>

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<i>it was not just about me
and the past,</i>

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<i>it was also about setting
a precedent for the future.</i>

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And so I felt that I must
be a witness at the trial.

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<i>Luneburg is a tiny
city in the north of Germany.</i>

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<i>You got your occasional murder
and you got</i>

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<i>your everyday trial business,
but a trial of that size...</i>

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Luneburg had never experienced
anything like it

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and hardly any German city
ever has.

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<i>The trial took place
in Luneburg</i>

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<i>because this is where
Groening is living,</i>

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<i>and according to German law,
you have to be tried</i>

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<i>by the court that is in the
vicinity of where you live.</i>

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<i>So they set it up
in a community center</i>

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<i>where they could house
enough people,</i>

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<i>where they could house all these
plaintiffs and all the lawyers,</i>

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<i>and all the media attention,
and also have</i>

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<i>enough seats for public because
public was supposed to come</i>

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<i>and see and, you know,
follow the proceedings.</i>

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They should pay for what
they've done. They all knew.

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For the kind of crimes
they committed

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and what they did
to the Jews,

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that should be punished.

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The little ones are hanged
and the big ones are let go.

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That's the way it is.

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To convict a 93-year-old man
doesn't make sense.

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I think he's lived
in fear of being

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caught for the past 50 years,

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and that he would
eventually be exposed.

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He was more or less forced.
He was a follower.

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And what were our fathers?

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Nobody talks about
that anymore.

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They were also followers.

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Then one would have to hold
many old judges accountable.

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Millions yelled,<i> "Heil!"</i> And
nobody supposedly knew anything.

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<i>When I was a child,</i>

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<i>nobody talked about the war
in my surrounding.</i>

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<i>At school, we didn't hear
a single word about the war.</i>

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<i>I had to learn
when I was 16 and 17</i>

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<i>in some movies
or in some books</i>

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<i>that there was a war
that started in my country.</i>

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Some liked to talk
about the war,

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but only what they suffered
during the war,

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or what heroes
they were during the war.

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Nobody talked
about the victims.

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And that was really
hard for us to understand

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that we had so many criminals
in our country,

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millions of them,

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and nobody explained to us
what really happened.

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<i>Both of my parents
supported the Nazis.</i>

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<i>My mother just followed
her husband.</i>

128
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<i>My father was a Nazi
from the very beginning.</i>

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<i>He died '53,
he committed suicide.</i>

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Uh, he was still stuck
to the old system of Nazi time.

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<i>We have old fascists
and new fascists of today.</i>

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<i>One organization that helped
in the Groening trial</i>

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<i>was the Anti-Fascist
organization.</i>

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<i>As the title says,</i>

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<i>they fight against fascism.</i>

136
00:09:01,410 --> 00:09:04,250
<i>And it happened 70 years ago
in our country,</i>

137
00:09:04,290 --> 00:09:05,731
and it happens today.

138
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<i> Sieg Heil!</i>

139
00:09:12,411 --> 00:09:15,730
<i>There was some
disturbance from right-wing people.</i>

140
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<i>So, the lawyer,
Thomas Walther,</i>

141
00:09:18,090 --> 00:09:21,810
<i>called six weeks before the
Groening trial started here,</i>

142
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<i>that we can prepare ourselves</i>

143
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<i>and make a system of banners
to keep away</i>

144
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<i>the Holocaust deniers from the
survivors and their relatives.</i>

145
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- Is the text ready?
- Yes, it's ready.

146
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There are people making
the banners as we speak.

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<i>I'm an Anti-Fascist.
It's, uh,</i>

148
00:09:41,850 --> 00:09:43,930
what kind of society
I want to live.

149
00:09:43,971 --> 00:09:47,011
<i>And we have a lot of racism
here in Germany</i>

150
00:09:47,050 --> 00:09:48,970
<i>and lots of houses
are burning</i>

151
00:09:49,009 --> 00:09:52,410
<i>because racist
and fascist people</i>

152
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<i>are mobilizing against refugees,
and lots of people get killed.</i>

153
00:09:56,530 --> 00:10:00,610
<i>And if we know
our history, then...</i>

154
00:10:00,649 --> 00:10:02,930
we can't do nothing now.

155
00:10:02,970 --> 00:10:06,330
So we have to act now too.

156
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What may be one of the last big
Holocaust trials opened today in Germany.

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Under a new legal theory
that death camp workers

158
00:10:12,530 --> 00:10:15,170
can be held accountable
for the Holocaust,

159
00:10:15,209 --> 00:10:18,050
even if they didn't murder
anyone with their own hands.

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00:10:18,089 --> 00:10:20,770
The man being charged
admits he was at Auschwitz

161
00:10:20,809 --> 00:10:22,650
but says
he didn't kill anybody.

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He just took
the victims' money.

163
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This court will now decide
whether the so-called

164
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"Accountant of Auschwitz"
is also guilty

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00:10:29,850 --> 00:10:32,290
as an accessory
to mass murder.

166
00:10:33,730 --> 00:10:36,329
The first day,
11 Holocaust deniers came.

167
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<i>They shouted out loud
and even shared</i>

168
00:10:42,490 --> 00:10:43,729
<i>some papers.</i>

169
00:10:45,929 --> 00:10:47,250
"Justice for the survivors
of Auschwitz"

170
00:10:47,290 --> 00:10:48,770
<i>Our friends put up the banner</i>

171
00:10:48,809 --> 00:10:52,410
<i>to show that there will be
justice for the survivors.</i>

172
00:10:52,450 --> 00:10:56,770
It's a very difficult
situation for the survivors

173
00:10:56,810 --> 00:10:58,890
<i>to stand in line
for two hours.</i>

174
00:10:58,930 --> 00:11:01,129
<i>Especially when
they're confronted with</i>

175
00:11:01,170 --> 00:11:04,810
<i>fascists like Mr. Wulff
or Mrs. Haverbeck.</i>

176
00:11:04,849 --> 00:11:08,969
<i>In Auschwitz
there were no gassings.</i>

177
00:11:09,010 --> 00:11:11,331
Auschwitz was not
an extermination camp.

178
00:11:11,370 --> 00:11:14,770
Also, the commander's orders,
the Reich's orders...

179
00:11:14,810 --> 00:11:16,690
We will stop the conversation.

180
00:11:16,730 --> 00:11:18,890
I told you earlier today
you could face charges.

181
00:11:18,930 --> 00:11:20,530
- Yes, but the...
- It does not matter.

182
00:11:20,570 --> 00:11:24,329
You'll be prosecuted
and forced to leave.

183
00:11:25,969 --> 00:11:29,210
I've had enough! I'm going over
there to a public proceeding.

184
00:11:29,250 --> 00:11:35,050
And I said please don't
criminalize us by talking to us.

185
00:11:35,090 --> 00:11:36,490
I want to go to the trial.

186
00:11:36,529 --> 00:11:39,130
The survivors
and their relatives

187
00:11:39,171 --> 00:11:41,449
<i>always had protection</i>

188
00:11:41,489 --> 00:11:43,730
<i>against our right-wing people.</i>

189
00:11:45,650 --> 00:11:47,330
<i>And that was
important for us,</i>

190
00:11:47,369 --> 00:11:49,289
and also very important
for them.

191
00:11:58,370 --> 00:12:01,050
The first day,
it was a frenzy,

192
00:12:01,690 --> 00:12:03,010
<i>it was amazing.</i>

193
00:12:03,050 --> 00:12:06,690
<i>Everyone everywhere in Europe,
all the major cities.</i>

194
00:12:06,729 --> 00:12:08,570
<i>We started being mobbed,</i>

195
00:12:08,610 --> 00:12:11,249
<i>literally,
by various TV cameras</i>

196
00:12:11,290 --> 00:12:12,370
and journalists

197
00:12:12,410 --> 00:12:14,050
<i>who wanted to know opinions</i>

198
00:12:14,089 --> 00:12:15,970
<i>and where we were standing
on this issue.</i>

199
00:12:17,570 --> 00:12:19,090
<i>There's a lot of merits</i>

200
00:12:19,130 --> 00:12:21,970
to have a person,
even 70 years after,

201
00:12:22,010 --> 00:12:24,689
<i>to bring him to court.
Nobody should be able</i>

202
00:12:24,730 --> 00:12:27,290
<i>to get away
with crimes against humanity,</i>

203
00:12:27,331 --> 00:12:29,449
against Jews.

204
00:12:29,489 --> 00:12:31,850
<i>"The survivor of Auschwitz,"</i>

205
00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:33,970
<i>sitting in a German court,</i>

206
00:12:34,010 --> 00:12:37,410
<i>surrounded by German judges
and German attorneys,</i>

207
00:12:37,449 --> 00:12:39,250
<i>and being treated with respect.</i>

208
00:12:39,930 --> 00:12:42,889
And that was in itself

209
00:12:42,929 --> 00:12:46,210
an interesting experience
for me.

210
00:12:46,250 --> 00:12:49,450
<i>At the time,
I was good friends</i>

211
00:12:49,489 --> 00:12:52,850
<i>with Rainer Hoess,
and Rainer Hoess</i>

212
00:12:52,890 --> 00:12:56,810
is a big advocate
against the neo-Nazis.

213
00:12:56,850 --> 00:13:00,090
I'm the grandson
of Rudolf Hoess,

214
00:13:00,130 --> 00:13:03,010
the commandant of the Auschwitz
concentration camp.

215
00:13:03,049 --> 00:13:08,090
<i>He was responsible
for 1.1 to 1.3 million killings</i>

216
00:13:08,130 --> 00:13:09,970
<i>at Auschwitz.</i>

217
00:13:10,010 --> 00:13:12,370
Hate is a powerful weapon,
and it was

218
00:13:12,410 --> 00:13:15,890
in the Second World War,
and it is today.

219
00:13:15,930 --> 00:13:19,610
<i>The Groening trial,
it is important for our growing youth.</i>

220
00:13:19,650 --> 00:13:22,890
<i>In the past, we only had
the voices of the survivors,</i>

221
00:13:23,770 --> 00:13:25,250
of the victims there.

222
00:13:25,289 --> 00:13:27,730
But nobody really listened
to the perpetrators.

223
00:13:36,610 --> 00:13:38,210
Come out.

224
00:13:43,010 --> 00:13:44,930
They won't start without me.

225
00:13:47,490 --> 00:13:50,929
Oskar, what do
you expect from the trial?

226
00:13:56,330 --> 00:13:58,531
A verdict of not guilty,
I don't know.

227
00:14:00,969 --> 00:14:03,050
- Are you innocent?
- What are you thinking?

228
00:14:03,090 --> 00:14:04,850
Mr. Groening,
don't say anything.

229
00:14:09,890 --> 00:14:13,730
<i> We were sitting in
one section of the courtroom</i>

230
00:14:13,770 --> 00:14:15,811
<i>and opposite us</i>

231
00:14:15,850 --> 00:14:20,009
this frail old man
walking with a walker

232
00:14:20,049 --> 00:14:22,130
<i>walked in.</i>

233
00:14:24,290 --> 00:14:26,970
<i>I felt cold
looking at this man.</i>

234
00:14:27,010 --> 00:14:31,490
The whole thing was
a surreal type of experience.

235
00:14:31,529 --> 00:14:33,810
That's the only way
I can describe it.

236
00:14:33,850 --> 00:14:36,850
<i>I did feel sympathy for him.</i>

237
00:14:36,890 --> 00:14:40,290
<i>He looked
like a pitiful old man.</i>

238
00:14:40,329 --> 00:14:44,210
<i>But that all changed
the moment he sat down,</i>

239
00:14:44,250 --> 00:14:46,530
and he looked around,

240
00:14:46,570 --> 00:14:48,930
and he put his arms like that.

241
00:14:51,770 --> 00:14:53,690
<i>You know, I thought,</i>

242
00:14:53,730 --> 00:14:56,170
"You are the same Nazi,

243
00:14:56,209 --> 00:15:00,010
<i>the same person
who thought you were gods,</i>

244
00:15:00,049 --> 00:15:03,929
and we were vermin... still."

245
00:15:03,970 --> 00:15:06,690
So all my sympathy vanished
at that point.

246
00:15:12,730 --> 00:15:14,690
Good morning.

247
00:15:14,729 --> 00:15:17,530
The trial made big headlines
because Oskar Groening

248
00:15:17,570 --> 00:15:20,369
was one of the few,
if not the first,

249
00:15:20,410 --> 00:15:23,330
<i>Auschwitz accused who said
that he will basically</i>

250
00:15:23,369 --> 00:15:24,690
<i>say something in court.</i>

251
00:15:24,730 --> 00:15:28,450
He told what really happened,
what he experienced

252
00:15:28,489 --> 00:15:30,330
during the time in Auschwitz.

253
00:15:31,250 --> 00:15:33,890
<i>Most of them tell some lies,</i>

254
00:15:33,929 --> 00:15:35,810
<i>what they did during that time,</i>

255
00:15:35,849 --> 00:15:38,489
but Mr. Groening
told the reality.

256
00:15:38,530 --> 00:15:40,890
<i>He told the truth
about his time,</i>

257
00:15:40,930 --> 00:15:42,449
<i>and that was very special.</i>

258
00:15:50,929 --> 00:15:52,730
<i>He basically admitted</i>

259
00:15:52,770 --> 00:15:55,130
that he collected goods,
he collected the luggage

260
00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:57,129
<i>of the people that would be
brought to Auschwitz.</i>

261
00:15:57,170 --> 00:16:00,130
<i>He would skim through
the luggage for valuables.</i>

262
00:16:00,169 --> 00:16:03,609
<i>He was one of the very few
Nazi perpetrators that admitted</i>

263
00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:05,929
<i>in court that people were
plundered of their belongings</i>

264
00:16:05,970 --> 00:16:09,289
<i>and didn't really expect them
to be given back to them.</i>

265
00:16:09,329 --> 00:16:12,970
<i>So in the consequence,
everyone working there knew people</i>

266
00:16:13,009 --> 00:16:14,610
were brought there to die.

267
00:16:35,409 --> 00:16:36,690
<i>I think he's a symbol,</i>

268
00:16:36,730 --> 00:16:39,850
and symbols often get
unfairly targeted.

269
00:16:39,889 --> 00:16:43,130
<i>Had he lived
at a time or at an age</i>

270
00:16:43,170 --> 00:16:46,769
<i>where the real perpetrators
had been effectively punished,</i>

271
00:16:46,809 --> 00:16:48,410
<i>probably nobody would have
gotten to him,</i>

272
00:16:48,450 --> 00:16:50,929
<i>he would have been
so low down on the list.</i>

273
00:16:50,970 --> 00:16:52,890
<i>The real issue
is what did Germany do,</i>

274
00:16:52,930 --> 00:16:56,249
not only during the war,
but what did it do after the war.

275
00:16:56,290 --> 00:16:59,129
And what it did after the war
is disgraceful.

276
00:17:14,089 --> 00:17:16,529
Here. "Do not bend."

277
00:17:16,569 --> 00:17:18,650
Ha! Look what I got here.

278
00:17:18,690 --> 00:17:21,530
This one do not bend,
that's fan mail.

279
00:17:21,570 --> 00:17:23,770
There's a picture in here
and I have to sign it.

280
00:17:25,090 --> 00:17:26,650
Here.

281
00:17:26,690 --> 00:17:29,090
He wants me to sign
the pictures for him.

282
00:17:29,129 --> 00:17:30,490
Ah, this is a rare one.

283
00:17:31,769 --> 00:17:34,210
I stood on the headquarters.

284
00:17:34,249 --> 00:17:35,769
Ah, that's also a rare one.

285
00:17:37,330 --> 00:17:39,889
<i>I landed on the beaches
of Normandy.</i>

286
00:17:39,930 --> 00:17:42,170
<i>I was a member
of General Patton's army.</i>

287
00:17:42,210 --> 00:17:45,649
<i>We pursued the Germans
back across France,</i>

288
00:17:45,690 --> 00:17:47,369
<i>back into Germany.</i>

289
00:17:47,409 --> 00:17:49,769
<i>And by that time,
I was assigned</i>

290
00:17:49,810 --> 00:17:52,530
<i>as a war-crimes investigator.</i>

291
00:17:52,570 --> 00:17:55,249
<i>I believe I was the first
war-crimes investigator</i>

292
00:17:55,290 --> 00:17:56,769
<i>in the United States Army.</i>

293
00:17:57,530 --> 00:18:00,569
<i>The problem I faced</i>

294
00:18:00,609 --> 00:18:03,130
<i>as the chief prosecutor
at Nuremberg</i>

295
00:18:03,170 --> 00:18:05,170
<i>was what do I ask for?</i>

296
00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:08,170
Here were 3000 men

297
00:18:08,209 --> 00:18:11,169
who every day went out
and murdered in cold blood

298
00:18:11,209 --> 00:18:13,089
thousands of people,

299
00:18:13,129 --> 00:18:15,490
including children shot,
one shot at a time.

300
00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:18,969
And I felt that I...

301
00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:22,970
could not possibly do justice

302
00:18:23,010 --> 00:18:26,089
to the million people
who had been killed.

303
00:18:26,130 --> 00:18:28,809
But if I could establish
a rule of law

304
00:18:28,849 --> 00:18:32,009
which could protect
humankind in the future,

305
00:18:32,050 --> 00:18:34,569
that would make this trial
more meaningful

306
00:18:34,609 --> 00:18:39,129
than whatever I would do with
these handful of murderers.

307
00:18:39,170 --> 00:18:41,609
This document,
which I haven't had in my hands

308
00:18:41,650 --> 00:18:44,849
since 1948 maybe,

309
00:18:44,889 --> 00:18:46,530
it's a list of my defendants

310
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:48,689
in the Einsatzgruppen Trial
at Nuremberg.

311
00:18:48,729 --> 00:18:51,769
And I had prepared
a list showing the names

312
00:18:51,810 --> 00:18:55,449
of the defendants,
the position they occupied. For example,

313
00:18:55,490 --> 00:18:58,810
Ohlendorf, commanding officer
of Einsatzgruppen D,

314
00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:01,369
killed 90,000.

315
00:19:01,410 --> 00:19:03,570
All of them pleaded
not guilty!

316
00:19:03,610 --> 00:19:07,809
Nobody came in and said, I did anything.
Oh, my goodness, no!

317
00:19:07,849 --> 00:19:11,849
<i>They said this was necessary
to carry out Hitler's orders.</i>

318
00:19:11,889 --> 00:19:14,769
<i>And there was a war going on,
what do you want us to do?</i>

319
00:19:14,809 --> 00:19:17,369
I had 22 defendants
selected by me

320
00:19:17,409 --> 00:19:20,689
out of 3000 mass murderers who
murdered over a million people!

321
00:19:20,730 --> 00:19:23,249
<i>And I could prove it!
I had all their top-secret</i>

322
00:19:23,289 --> 00:19:26,810
<i>contemporaneous documents.
No question about the facts.</i>

323
00:19:26,850 --> 00:19:30,129
<i>I wanted top people,
planners,</i>

324
00:19:30,169 --> 00:19:32,089
<i>people who had high command,</i>

325
00:19:32,130 --> 00:19:36,209
<i>responsible positions.
Their specific assignment was</i>

326
00:19:36,250 --> 00:19:38,410
to murder, in cold blood,

327
00:19:38,449 --> 00:19:41,050
every single Jewish man,
woman and child

328
00:19:41,090 --> 00:19:42,530
<i>they could lay
their hands on.</i>

329
00:19:43,970 --> 00:19:45,570
<i>And I knew</i>

330
00:19:45,609 --> 00:19:49,169
<i>that picking 22 defendants
out of 3000 men</i>

331
00:19:49,209 --> 00:19:51,009
<i>is only a poor sampling</i>

332
00:19:51,049 --> 00:19:54,569
for the ridiculous reason that
we only had 22 seats in the dock.

333
00:19:56,250 --> 00:19:58,289
<i>Did we seek to do justice?</i>

334
00:19:58,330 --> 00:19:59,810
<i>Of course not.</i>

335
00:19:59,849 --> 00:20:03,489
<i>Because we'd still be there
trying Nazis to this day.</i>

336
00:20:03,529 --> 00:20:06,010
So you try to make
a statement of principle.

337
00:20:06,050 --> 00:20:08,770
The principle is don't do this,
it's a crime against humanity.

338
00:20:08,809 --> 00:20:11,289
Stop doing it!
If you insist upon doing it,

339
00:20:11,330 --> 00:20:13,089
we'll try to catch you
if you're a leader

340
00:20:13,129 --> 00:20:15,369
and put you away
so you won't do it again,

341
00:20:15,409 --> 00:20:18,330
and others will be deterred
from doing it.

342
00:20:18,370 --> 00:20:20,649
<i>And so,
when the presiding justice,</i>

343
00:20:20,689 --> 00:20:24,049
<i>Michael Musmanno,
opened the trial, he said...</i>

344
00:20:24,090 --> 00:20:28,090
We're now ready to hear the
presentation by the prosecution.

345
00:20:28,130 --> 00:20:32,450
I then went on to say,
"Vengeance is not our goal..."

346
00:20:32,489 --> 00:20:35,610
...nor do we seek merely
a just retribution.

347
00:20:37,570 --> 00:20:39,569
We ask this court

348
00:20:39,610 --> 00:20:43,129
to affirm
by international penal action

349
00:20:43,170 --> 00:20:47,410
man's right to live
in peace and dignity,

350
00:20:47,450 --> 00:20:49,729
regardless of his race
or creed.

351
00:20:51,449 --> 00:20:53,329
The case we present

352
00:20:53,369 --> 00:20:56,090
is a plea of humanity...

353
00:20:56,130 --> 00:20:59,049
"...to law." Because really,

354
00:20:59,089 --> 00:21:01,369
that's what I was trying
to accomplish.

355
00:21:03,889 --> 00:21:06,049
<i>Nuremberg
was a trial that marked</i>

356
00:21:06,089 --> 00:21:10,569
the beginning of international
criminal law as we know it.

357
00:21:10,609 --> 00:21:13,250
<i>Notorious Nazi criminals
tried at Nuremberg</i>

358
00:21:13,289 --> 00:21:15,209
<i>included Hermann Goering...</i>

359
00:21:17,250 --> 00:21:18,369
<i>Rudolf Hess,</i>

360
00:21:19,729 --> 00:21:21,050
<i>many, many others.</i>

361
00:21:21,090 --> 00:21:24,169
But the trials themselves
were not well received

362
00:21:24,209 --> 00:21:29,129
by the German public. They were
perceived to be victor's justice.

363
00:21:29,169 --> 00:21:32,769
Nobody feels like sitting and
thinking about their crimes.

364
00:21:32,809 --> 00:21:33,969
They want to move on.

365
00:21:34,009 --> 00:21:35,490
And some of that
is legitimate.

366
00:21:35,529 --> 00:21:38,449
This is a country that has been
turned into rubble.

367
00:21:38,489 --> 00:21:42,649
<i>And it becomes a question of
rebuilding, brick by brick.</i>

368
00:21:42,690 --> 00:21:46,089
<i>So the last thing people want to do is
sit around and talk about their crimes</i>

369
00:21:46,129 --> 00:21:48,809
<i>and their guilt and how
they devastated Europe.</i>

370
00:21:53,250 --> 00:21:55,129
<i> At the Hall</i>
<i>of Justice in Nuremberg,</i>

371
00:21:55,170 --> 00:21:58,849
<i>history's greatest trial
nears its fateful close.</i>

372
00:21:58,889 --> 00:22:02,609
The outcome was most of
the defendants were convicted.

373
00:22:02,649 --> 00:22:04,729
<i>There were a few acquittals.</i>

374
00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:08,809
<i>Some of the defendants were sentenced
to die, and they were executed.</i>

375
00:22:11,650 --> 00:22:15,249
<i>The new German government,
as it was formed,</i>

376
00:22:15,289 --> 00:22:16,730
<i>lobbied intensively</i>

377
00:22:16,770 --> 00:22:19,409
<i>to bring the trials
to an end, and lobbied</i>

378
00:22:19,450 --> 00:22:22,009
<i>to have people who were
convicted at Nuremberg,</i>

379
00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:25,449
even people who were sentenced
to death at Nuremberg, released.

380
00:22:26,529 --> 00:22:27,970
And most of them were.

381
00:22:28,009 --> 00:22:31,769
After the Second World War,
the German system didn't fail

382
00:22:31,810 --> 00:22:33,449
to prosecute
Nazi war criminals,

383
00:22:33,489 --> 00:22:36,089
it deliberately decided
not to prosecute them

384
00:22:36,129 --> 00:22:39,009
because many of the judges
were Nazi war criminals.

385
00:22:39,049 --> 00:22:42,530
<i>There is evidence
that a very high percentage</i>

386
00:22:42,569 --> 00:22:43,529
<i>of German judges,</i>

387
00:22:43,569 --> 00:22:45,169
<i>particularly
West German judges</i>

388
00:22:45,209 --> 00:22:49,129
<i>between 1945 and 1967
were Nazis.</i>

389
00:22:49,169 --> 00:22:50,569
<i>Uh, I don't say former Nazis,</i>

390
00:22:50,609 --> 00:22:54,489
<i>I say Nazis.
People who sympathized with the Nazis.</i>

391
00:22:54,529 --> 00:22:58,169
<i>The Ministry of
Justice are like 99% former Nazis.</i>

392
00:22:58,209 --> 00:23:00,329
<i>And they are the ones who are</i>

393
00:23:00,369 --> 00:23:03,330
creating and defining
the new legal system.

394
00:23:03,369 --> 00:23:06,530
They were sitting in judgement
of themselves.

395
00:23:06,569 --> 00:23:09,570
<i>And obviously, the result was
terrible, terrible injustice.</i>

396
00:24:12,168 --> 00:24:13,769
<i> So it's a terrible,</i>
<i>terrible record</i>

397
00:24:13,809 --> 00:24:16,409
<i>where almost nobody
is convicted.</i>

398
00:24:16,450 --> 00:24:17,849
<i>And again, there's
no political will for it.</i>

399
00:24:17,889 --> 00:24:20,529
The vast majority of Germans
find these trials

400
00:24:20,570 --> 00:24:23,129
kind of cathartic and perfect

401
00:24:23,170 --> 00:24:26,330
<i>because they show the horrors
of places like Auschwitz,</i>

402
00:24:26,370 --> 00:24:29,569
<i>they nail a few, you know,
bad apples to the wall,</i>

403
00:24:29,609 --> 00:24:32,529
<i>and the rest of them
look like innocent people</i>

404
00:24:32,569 --> 00:24:34,850
<i>who didn't deserve
to be punished anyway,</i>

405
00:24:34,889 --> 00:24:37,649
<i>because they're not really dangerous
outside of the camp setting.</i>

406
00:24:37,689 --> 00:24:41,209
<i>And this is where, for me,
these trials are such a disaster.</i>

407
00:24:41,249 --> 00:24:43,129
<i>Every country, just about,</i>

408
00:24:43,169 --> 00:24:46,210
has difficult parts
of its past

409
00:24:46,249 --> 00:24:49,529
that it, uh, struggles to...

410
00:24:49,569 --> 00:24:51,929
to come to grips with.

411
00:24:51,970 --> 00:24:55,529
That's true in the United States
still, I would say,

412
00:24:55,569 --> 00:24:58,609
<i>with respect to slavery
and its aftermath.</i>

413
00:24:58,649 --> 00:25:00,689
<i>It was certainly true
in Germany</i>

414
00:25:00,729 --> 00:25:03,529
with respect to Nazi genocide

415
00:25:03,569 --> 00:25:05,889
and crimes against humanity.

416
00:25:05,928 --> 00:25:08,089
<i>Imagine a population</i>

417
00:25:08,129 --> 00:25:11,089
<i>in which
a significant percentage</i>

418
00:25:11,129 --> 00:25:14,089
<i>of the fathers,
brothers, sons</i>

419
00:25:14,129 --> 00:25:16,329
<i>took part in these crimes.</i>

420
00:25:16,369 --> 00:25:18,889
<i>Later on, in ensuing decades,</i>

421
00:25:18,929 --> 00:25:22,409
<i>grandfathers all over Germany
had done this.</i>

422
00:25:22,449 --> 00:25:25,249
<i>It was very difficult
for the German public</i>

423
00:25:25,289 --> 00:25:27,810
<i>to accept the idea</i>

424
00:25:27,849 --> 00:25:30,969
<i>of large-scale prosecutions,
and I don't think there was</i>

425
00:25:31,009 --> 00:25:33,570
great enthusiasm among
prosecutors either.

426
00:25:33,609 --> 00:25:35,009
I'd say in 1945,

427
00:25:35,049 --> 00:25:38,289
<i>there were probably around
800,000 members of the SS.</i>

428
00:25:38,330 --> 00:25:39,849
<i>And that's what
we're dealing with.</i>

429
00:25:39,889 --> 00:25:42,929
<i>The Germans between 1947</i>

430
00:25:42,969 --> 00:25:47,650
<i>and up to the present investigate
over 100,000 of these people.</i>

431
00:25:47,689 --> 00:25:51,329
<i>Of those, they bring
about 6,200 to trial.</i>

432
00:25:51,369 --> 00:25:54,169
<i>Of that, the convictions</i>

433
00:25:54,209 --> 00:25:57,089
<i>for perpetrating murder
is 124.</i>

434
00:25:57,129 --> 00:26:01,089
<i>124 life sentences
of over 6,000 people tried.</i>

435
00:26:01,129 --> 00:26:05,849
I still have nightmares about that
famous photograph of the German soldier

436
00:26:05,889 --> 00:26:07,769
<i>shooting the mother
and her baby,</i>

437
00:26:07,809 --> 00:26:10,489
<i>and imagining this man lived
a full and complete life,</i>

438
00:26:10,529 --> 00:26:12,649
<i>and died
with his own grandchildren</i>

439
00:26:12,689 --> 00:26:15,169
<i>and great-grandchildren surrounding
him thinking he was a wonderful man.</i>

440
00:26:15,208 --> 00:26:18,569
That's the legacy
of the Holocaust in Germany,

441
00:26:18,609 --> 00:26:20,808
not the few war crime trials.

442
00:26:24,369 --> 00:26:26,889
<i> I think</i>
<i>what's happening now is</i>

443
00:26:26,929 --> 00:26:29,608
<i>that the judges
or the prosecutors</i>

444
00:26:29,649 --> 00:26:31,849
<i>want to make good for</i>

445
00:26:31,889 --> 00:26:34,809
the mistakes
that were made in the past,

446
00:26:34,850 --> 00:26:37,008
like in the 1960s
and 1970s.

447
00:26:37,049 --> 00:26:39,489
<i>And I think coming to terms</i>

448
00:26:39,529 --> 00:26:42,009
<i>with the past can be done
in a different way.</i>

449
00:26:43,650 --> 00:26:45,768
<i>It's difficult
to say what good can be done</i>

450
00:26:45,809 --> 00:26:50,089
<i>by punishing someone for a crime
they committed 70 years ago.</i>

451
00:26:50,129 --> 00:26:52,449
The further question
that I think has to be raised,

452
00:26:52,488 --> 00:26:55,769
because of the time period,
is, if you punish a man

453
00:26:55,809 --> 00:27:00,249
<i>of 93 for something
that he did when he was 23,</i>

454
00:27:00,289 --> 00:27:03,650
<i>are you still punishing
the person who did the crime?</i>

455
00:27:03,689 --> 00:27:05,808
<i>Everything about him</i>

456
00:27:05,849 --> 00:27:09,729
<i>in terms of what makes one
a criminal has changed.</i>

457
00:27:09,768 --> 00:27:11,449
<i>He had grown up in a family</i>

458
00:27:11,490 --> 00:27:14,129
<i>that was very nationalist,</i>

459
00:27:14,169 --> 00:27:16,809
<i>he absorbed the ideology
of the Nazis</i>

460
00:27:16,849 --> 00:27:18,729
<i>as a teenager, a young man,</i>

461
00:27:18,769 --> 00:27:21,769
<i>and joined the Hitler Youth,
then volunteered for the SS.</i>

462
00:27:22,529 --> 00:27:24,168
<i>So we're in a way</i>

463
00:27:24,209 --> 00:27:27,529
<i>punishing someone
for what a different person,</i>

464
00:27:27,569 --> 00:27:29,449
<i>a different personality,</i>

465
00:27:29,489 --> 00:27:32,889
somebody with different
characteristics did.

466
00:27:32,929 --> 00:27:34,409
<i>It is too little too late.</i>

467
00:27:34,449 --> 00:27:36,569
This needed to be done
a long time ago.

468
00:27:36,609 --> 00:27:39,330
<i>But how ridiculous is it
that they're doing it now</i>

469
00:27:39,369 --> 00:27:41,448
<i>when these people
are all in their 90s?</i>

470
00:27:46,408 --> 00:27:47,569
Good afternoon.

471
00:27:47,609 --> 00:27:49,569
<i>I'm in my 98th year.</i>

472
00:27:49,609 --> 00:27:53,089
<i>If I committed an illegal act,
I could expect to go to jail.</i>

473
00:27:53,128 --> 00:27:56,489
If I committed an illegal act where
there was no statute of limitations,

474
00:27:56,529 --> 00:27:59,009
as is the case
with crimes against humanity,

475
00:27:59,049 --> 00:28:00,169
you go to jail.

476
00:28:00,209 --> 00:28:02,089
<i>Age is no defense.</i>

477
00:28:02,129 --> 00:28:04,089
<i>And they have to know
that the criminal</i>

478
00:28:04,130 --> 00:28:06,009
<i>will be pursued
as long as necessary</i>

479
00:28:06,050 --> 00:28:10,248
to try to bring whatever justice is
possible under the circumstances.

480
00:28:10,288 --> 00:28:13,209
How did it happen
that here he was

481
00:28:13,249 --> 00:28:15,729
in his own hometown
for 70 years,

482
00:28:15,769 --> 00:28:19,409
<i>and nobody did
anything about it?</i>

483
00:28:19,449 --> 00:28:21,609
All this is happening
because it's doable now.

484
00:28:23,129 --> 00:28:26,249
40 years ago, 50 years ago,
it was very far from doable.

485
00:28:26,289 --> 00:28:29,529
For many, many years,
the German judicial system

486
00:28:29,569 --> 00:28:32,249
used the wrong legal frame

487
00:28:32,289 --> 00:28:35,970
to try to digest
the crimes of the Holocaust.

488
00:28:36,009 --> 00:28:39,449
They had to prove
that the suspect

489
00:28:39,489 --> 00:28:43,329
had committed a specific crime
against a specific victim

490
00:28:43,369 --> 00:28:46,489
and had done so
motivated by racial hatred.

491
00:28:47,728 --> 00:28:50,089
And as you can imagine,
it's not easy to prove.

492
00:28:50,129 --> 00:28:52,849
If you couldn't prove
that someone had engaged

493
00:28:52,889 --> 00:28:55,368
<i>let's say in some kind
of hands-on act of killing,</i>

494
00:28:55,408 --> 00:28:57,809
<i>then you simply
couldn't convict.</i>

495
00:28:57,849 --> 00:29:01,369
<i>Which is one of the reasons
why many, many, many guards</i>

496
00:29:01,409 --> 00:29:04,249
<i>who we might wish
had been convicted</i>

497
00:29:04,289 --> 00:29:06,369
<i>couldn't have been,
because in a sense,</i>

498
00:29:06,409 --> 00:29:09,648
<i>the Germans failed to create
an adequate legal idiom,</i>

499
00:29:09,689 --> 00:29:12,249
<i>an adequate theory
that would permit</i>

500
00:29:12,289 --> 00:29:14,169
<i>these guards to be convicted.</i>

501
00:29:14,209 --> 00:29:16,488
That changed
pretty dramatically

502
00:29:16,528 --> 00:29:18,649
<i>with Demjanjuk.</i>

503
00:29:18,689 --> 00:29:20,368
<i> Because of</i>
<i>the Demjanjuk case,</i>

504
00:29:20,409 --> 00:29:23,129
all of a sudden,
the prosecution in Germany changed

505
00:29:23,169 --> 00:29:24,089
the rules of the game.

506
00:29:24,129 --> 00:29:25,369
Without the Demjanjuk case,

507
00:29:25,409 --> 00:29:27,208
<i>there wouldn't have been
a Groening case.</i>

508
00:29:27,249 --> 00:29:30,289
<i> John Demjanjuk,</i>
<i>originally Ivan Demjanjuk,</i>

509
00:29:30,329 --> 00:29:33,169
<i>immigrated to the United
States around 1950</i>

510
00:29:33,209 --> 00:29:35,209
<i>claiming to be a refugee.</i>

511
00:29:37,689 --> 00:29:38,888
<i>Interestingly,</i>

512
00:29:38,929 --> 00:29:42,009
on his US visa application,

513
00:29:42,049 --> 00:29:46,369
<i>he listed as his residence
from some time in the 1930s</i>

514
00:29:46,408 --> 00:29:48,328
to 1943

515
00:29:48,369 --> 00:29:52,209
"Sobibor, Poland."

516
00:29:52,249 --> 00:29:56,329
<i>Sobibor is a word that should
send a chill up the spine</i>

517
00:29:56,369 --> 00:29:58,289
of every person
on this planet.

518
00:29:59,608 --> 00:30:02,009
<i>One normally thinks
of there having been</i>

519
00:30:02,049 --> 00:30:04,729
<i>six Nazi death camps,</i>

520
00:30:04,769 --> 00:30:06,408
<i>extermination camps.</i>

521
00:30:06,448 --> 00:30:10,489
<i>That is places that existed
solely to murder people.</i>

522
00:30:10,529 --> 00:30:12,689
<i>Those would be Majdanek,</i>

523
00:30:12,729 --> 00:30:15,329
<i>Sobibor, Chelmno,</i>

524
00:30:15,368 --> 00:30:17,889
<i>Belzec, Treblinka,</i>

525
00:30:17,928 --> 00:30:20,610
<i>and Auschwitz-Birkenau.</i>

526
00:30:20,649 --> 00:30:23,490
<i>Unfortunately, the people
processing visa applications</i>

527
00:30:23,529 --> 00:30:26,809
<i>for the United States in 1950
had not heard</i>

528
00:30:26,849 --> 00:30:30,649
<i>of Sobibor, and so the word
meant nothing to them.</i>

529
00:30:30,689 --> 00:30:33,049
<i>And Demjanjuk
received his visa.</i>

530
00:30:33,090 --> 00:30:35,970
He worked in Ford
as a machinist.

531
00:30:36,009 --> 00:30:38,729
<i>He put together, kind of,
a perfectly respectable</i>

532
00:30:38,769 --> 00:30:41,369
<i>mid-western life,
until around the mid '70s.</i>

533
00:30:43,609 --> 00:30:46,088
<i>American prosecutors
became aware</i>

534
00:30:46,129 --> 00:30:48,329
<i>that he had lied
on immigration forms.</i>

535
00:30:48,369 --> 00:30:52,169
<i>And this started an investigation
which really turned into</i>

536
00:30:52,209 --> 00:30:55,849
<i>probably the most convoluted
and lengthiest criminal case</i>

537
00:30:55,889 --> 00:30:57,849
to arise
out of the Holocaust.

538
00:30:58,609 --> 00:31:00,249
<i>When the Americans started</i>

539
00:31:00,289 --> 00:31:02,928
<i>investigating Demjanjuk,
they had discovered</i>

540
00:31:02,968 --> 00:31:06,529
<i>an ID of Demjanjuk's
that the SS had issued,</i>

541
00:31:06,569 --> 00:31:09,329
<i>which indicated
that he had been assigned</i>

542
00:31:09,369 --> 00:31:11,888
<i>to work
at the Sobibor death camp.</i>

543
00:31:11,929 --> 00:31:15,009
But when the Americans
started interviewing,

544
00:31:15,049 --> 00:31:18,129
<i>uh, various
death camp survivors,</i>

545
00:31:18,169 --> 00:31:21,208
<i>they found that a number
of survivors identified</i>

546
00:31:21,249 --> 00:31:23,969
<i>Demjanjuk not as a guard
at Sobibor,</i>

547
00:31:24,009 --> 00:31:26,209
<i>but as a guard at Treblinka.</i>

548
00:31:29,089 --> 00:31:31,728
<i> John Demjanjuk goes</i>
<i>on trial in Jerusalem,</i>

549
00:31:31,768 --> 00:31:34,608
<i>accused of being the Nazi
concentration camp guard</i>

550
00:31:34,648 --> 00:31:36,329
<i>known as Ivan the Terrible.</i>

551
00:31:36,369 --> 00:31:40,089
<i> It's described simply</i>
<i>as "Criminal Case 373,</i>

552
00:31:40,129 --> 00:31:43,329
the State of Israel
versus Ivan Demjanjuk."

553
00:31:43,368 --> 00:31:46,168
<i>Israel's last war-crimes trial</i>

554
00:31:46,209 --> 00:31:48,609
<i>convicted Adolf Eichmann,
the administrator</i>

555
00:31:48,648 --> 00:31:51,489
<i>of Nazi Germany's
Final Solution.</i>

556
00:31:51,528 --> 00:31:53,008
<i>25 years later,</i>

557
00:31:53,049 --> 00:31:55,649
<i>another man leaves the
same cell in Ayalon prison,</i>

558
00:31:55,689 --> 00:31:59,409
<i>to make the 80km trip
to a Jerusalem courtroom,</i>

559
00:31:59,449 --> 00:32:02,888
<i>perhaps to meet the same fate
on the gallows.</i>

560
00:32:04,089 --> 00:32:06,649
Hello everybody.
I'm not 'Ivan the Terrible.'

561
00:32:06,689 --> 00:32:09,208
<i>John Demjanjuk
is on trial for his life.</i>

562
00:32:10,168 --> 00:32:11,169
How are you today?

563
00:32:11,208 --> 00:32:14,529
Good, thank you!
I'm good all the time.

564
00:32:20,609 --> 00:32:22,289
They would have shoved me

565
00:32:22,329 --> 00:32:25,009
straight alive
into a pit full of blood.

566
00:32:25,049 --> 00:32:27,448
You weren't there.
I was there!

567
00:32:27,489 --> 00:32:29,529
Ask him! Ask him!
Let him tell you!

568
00:32:29,569 --> 00:32:31,969
Let him tell you
what he would have done to me.

569
00:32:34,609 --> 00:32:35,609
Stand up, John.

570
00:32:40,048 --> 00:32:41,609
Look at me.

571
00:32:41,649 --> 00:32:42,808
Put that away!

572
00:32:42,849 --> 00:32:44,209
I wasn't there.

573
00:32:44,249 --> 00:32:46,009
Mr. Rosenberg...

574
00:32:48,168 --> 00:32:49,969
Please... sit down.

575
00:32:50,009 --> 00:32:52,968
The public is requested
to keep to its seat.

576
00:32:53,009 --> 00:32:55,649
<i>John Demjanjuk continued
to try to convince the court</i>

577
00:32:55,688 --> 00:32:59,489
<i>he is not "Ivan the Terrible,"
the SS officer who helped kill</i>

578
00:32:59,528 --> 00:33:02,408
<i>850,000 Polish Jews.</i>

579
00:33:03,489 --> 00:33:04,929
I am innocent,

580
00:33:04,968 --> 00:33:06,649
innocent, innocent!

581
00:33:06,689 --> 00:33:08,168
We sentence him

582
00:33:08,209 --> 00:33:11,688
for the aforementioned crimes,
the punishment of death

583
00:33:11,728 --> 00:33:14,289
as stipulated in section one
of the Nazi

584
00:33:14,329 --> 00:33:16,848
and Nazi collaborators law.

585
00:33:16,889 --> 00:33:19,848
I'm not the Ivan the Terrible!
I'm a good man!

586
00:33:19,889 --> 00:33:21,608
After he was sentenced
to death,

587
00:33:21,648 --> 00:33:23,889
there was a rather long

588
00:33:23,929 --> 00:33:26,889
<i>and drawn out appellate phase
that happened to coincide</i>

589
00:33:26,928 --> 00:33:28,888
<i>with the unraveling
of the Soviet Union.</i>

590
00:33:28,929 --> 00:33:31,368
<i> Mr. Gorbachev,</i>

591
00:33:31,409 --> 00:33:33,209
<i>tear down this wall!</i>

592
00:33:34,489 --> 00:33:37,049
<i> As the old</i>
<i>Soviet Union fell apart,</i>

593
00:33:37,089 --> 00:33:39,408
<i>their archives opened up.</i>

594
00:33:39,448 --> 00:33:41,049
<i>They discovered, that in fact,</i>

595
00:33:41,089 --> 00:33:43,009
<i>the Israelis
had the wrong guy,</i>

596
00:33:43,049 --> 00:33:45,049
<i>that Demjanjuk had not been</i>

597
00:33:45,089 --> 00:33:47,809
<i>"Ivan the Terrible
of Treblinka."</i>

598
00:33:47,849 --> 00:33:49,649
<i>In fact,
"Ivan the Terrible" had been</i>

599
00:33:49,689 --> 00:33:52,649
<i>this entirely different
Ukrainian named Ivan Marchenko.</i>

600
00:33:54,569 --> 00:33:55,928
<i>It really showed you</i>

601
00:33:55,969 --> 00:33:58,648
<i>the limits of structuring
these trials</i>

602
00:33:58,689 --> 00:34:01,729
<i>around the eyewitness testimony
of survivors,</i>

603
00:34:01,768 --> 00:34:04,089
<i>because these survivors,
they were positive</i>

604
00:34:04,129 --> 00:34:06,169
<i>that Demjanjuk
was their former tormentor,</i>

605
00:34:06,209 --> 00:34:07,809
<i>and they were wrong.</i>

606
00:34:09,288 --> 00:34:11,568
I miss my wife.

607
00:34:11,609 --> 00:34:13,849
I miss my family.

608
00:34:13,889 --> 00:34:15,888
I miss my grandchildren.

609
00:34:15,928 --> 00:34:17,848
I want to go home.

610
00:34:17,889 --> 00:34:21,008
<i>As a result of this
case of mistaken identity,</i>

611
00:34:21,049 --> 00:34:24,209
<i>he was acquitted.
But the mistaken identity</i>

612
00:34:24,249 --> 00:34:28,209
also indicated that he wasn't
entirely free of guilt.

613
00:34:33,849 --> 00:34:36,328
<i> In my country,</i>
<i>Demjanjuk worked</i>

614
00:34:36,368 --> 00:34:39,088
<i>on an assembly line
for the Ford Motor Company.</i>

615
00:34:39,128 --> 00:34:41,409
And I suspect
if you had asked Demjanjuk

616
00:34:41,448 --> 00:34:43,888
at that time,
"What do you do for a living?"

617
00:34:43,928 --> 00:34:45,728
<i>He would have said,</i>

618
00:34:45,768 --> 00:34:49,089
<i>"I build cars."
Even though, I assume,</i>

619
00:34:49,128 --> 00:34:50,849
<i>he did one little operation,</i>

620
00:34:50,888 --> 00:34:53,928
tightened one bolt or something.
He did not ever build

621
00:34:53,969 --> 00:34:56,089
<i>an entire car himself.</i>

622
00:34:56,129 --> 00:34:58,849
<i>But that's what he did for a living.
They were building cars.</i>

623
00:35:00,208 --> 00:35:02,168
<i>At places like Auschwitz,</i>

624
00:35:02,209 --> 00:35:03,729
<i>Sobibor,</i>

625
00:35:03,769 --> 00:35:07,289
<i>what the SS personnel there
did for a living</i>

626
00:35:07,329 --> 00:35:12,249
<i>was kill innocent
human beings.</i>

627
00:35:12,289 --> 00:35:14,329
<i>There was nothing else
going on there.</i>

628
00:35:15,448 --> 00:35:17,729
Today, a federal court
in Cleveland

629
00:35:17,768 --> 00:35:21,328
stripped John Demjanjuk
of his US citizenship,

630
00:35:21,368 --> 00:35:23,769
finding that he served the
Nazis during World War II

631
00:35:23,809 --> 00:35:26,489
as an armed guard
at the Sobibor death camp.

632
00:35:26,529 --> 00:35:29,769
Our efforts were inspired by
the courage of the survivors,

633
00:35:29,808 --> 00:35:31,848
who, in recounting for us

634
00:35:31,888 --> 00:35:35,048
their nightmarish experiences
of more than half a century ago,

635
00:35:35,088 --> 00:35:37,528
were willing
to reopen psychic wounds

636
00:35:37,568 --> 00:35:39,809
that of course
have never fully healed.

637
00:35:39,848 --> 00:35:43,368
What very few people know
is that after ten years

638
00:35:43,408 --> 00:35:47,408
of litigation against Demjanjuk
in the United States,

639
00:35:47,448 --> 00:35:50,128
when we had gotten courts
to revoke his citizenship

640
00:35:50,168 --> 00:35:52,328
and order him deported,

641
00:35:52,368 --> 00:35:53,808
<i>we went
to the German government</i>

642
00:35:53,848 --> 00:35:56,088
<i>and asked Germany
to accept him,</i>

643
00:35:56,129 --> 00:35:58,288
<i>and Germany said "No."</i>

644
00:35:58,329 --> 00:36:00,289
<i>As Germany and other
governments of Europe</i>

645
00:36:00,328 --> 00:36:02,808
have routinely done
in our cases.

646
00:36:02,849 --> 00:36:05,089
Uh, enormously frustrating.

647
00:36:05,128 --> 00:36:07,129
<i>I then met Thomas Walther</i>

648
00:36:07,169 --> 00:36:08,488
<i>and Kirsten Goetze,</i>

649
00:36:08,528 --> 00:36:11,929
<i>and we brainstormed
how there might be a way</i>

650
00:36:11,969 --> 00:36:15,329
<i>to get Demjanjuk indicted
in Germany.</i>

651
00:36:15,368 --> 00:36:17,689
<i> There was</i>
<i>a very important connection</i>

652
00:36:17,729 --> 00:36:20,649
to the US Office
of Special Investigations

653
00:36:20,688 --> 00:36:23,088
with Eli Rosenbaum
in Washington.

654
00:36:23,928 --> 00:36:26,928
<i>He always told me that</i>

655
00:36:26,969 --> 00:36:30,728
<i>he cannot understand
why we in Germany</i>

656
00:36:30,768 --> 00:36:34,568
<i>do not prosecute these guards</i>

657
00:36:34,608 --> 00:36:38,408
<i>who are watching
that nobody can escape</i>

658
00:36:38,448 --> 00:36:40,289
<i>from a killing place.</i>

659
00:36:40,328 --> 00:36:44,488
<i> Those camps existed to
carry out crimes against humanity,</i>

660
00:36:44,529 --> 00:36:46,489
<i>crimes of persecution.</i>

661
00:36:46,529 --> 00:36:48,608
<i>I gave him the example.
I said,</i>

662
00:36:48,648 --> 00:36:50,528
"Thomas, look, we're sitting
here in my office.

663
00:36:50,568 --> 00:36:54,368
<i>If you decide to chase me
around my office</i>

664
00:36:54,408 --> 00:36:56,368
with a knife to kill me,

665
00:36:56,408 --> 00:36:59,128
and you have a cohort
who is outside the office

666
00:36:59,168 --> 00:37:02,408
holding the door closed,
so that I cannot escape,

667
00:37:02,448 --> 00:37:06,408
under those circumstances,
both you and your cohort

668
00:37:06,448 --> 00:37:08,529
will be found guilty
in my country

669
00:37:08,569 --> 00:37:11,009
of first-degree murder."
And I said,

670
00:37:11,048 --> 00:37:15,608
"I cannot imagine that the law
is any different in Germany."

671
00:37:15,649 --> 00:37:19,408
<i>These camps had no
other reason than to kill people.</i>

672
00:37:19,448 --> 00:37:22,689
There is no question
that this person

673
00:37:22,728 --> 00:37:26,888
is responsible and part
of the whole killing process.

674
00:37:26,928 --> 00:37:28,648
<i>The guards in death camps</i>

675
00:37:28,689 --> 00:37:30,968
<i>like Auschwitz-Birkenau,
Sobibor,</i>

676
00:37:31,008 --> 00:37:33,888
<i>they knew what was going
on there, and they made sure</i>

677
00:37:33,928 --> 00:37:36,089
that the victims
did not escape.

678
00:37:36,129 --> 00:37:39,289
<i>Ultimately, Thomas and Kirsten
did the legal research</i>

679
00:37:39,329 --> 00:37:42,448
<i>and ascertained
that there was case law,</i>

680
00:37:42,488 --> 00:37:43,888
and brought the Demjanjuk case.

681
00:37:54,209 --> 00:37:57,848
<i>This is a very
wonderful day for justice today.</i>

682
00:37:57,888 --> 00:38:01,329
<i>The fact that this person,
who was an active participant</i>

683
00:38:01,369 --> 00:38:03,688
<i>in the mass murder
of 29,000 Jews</i>

684
00:38:03,728 --> 00:38:06,808
<i>in the Sobibor death camp,
is finally going</i>

685
00:38:06,849 --> 00:38:10,009
<i>to stand trial for those
crimes is extremely important.</i>

686
00:38:10,049 --> 00:38:13,048
<i>We are extremely,
extremely pleased, and I think</i>

687
00:38:13,088 --> 00:38:15,649
<i>that the American
and German authorities</i>

688
00:38:15,688 --> 00:38:17,488
<i>deserve a tremendous amount
of credit</i>

689
00:38:17,529 --> 00:38:19,368
<i>for their perseverance
in this case.</i>

690
00:38:42,209 --> 00:38:44,648
Um, target. I'm on
the wrong side of the car.

691
00:38:47,608 --> 00:38:49,048
- He's walking.
- Yeah.

692
00:38:58,049 --> 00:38:59,809
<i>It looks rather innocent,</i>

693
00:38:59,848 --> 00:39:02,529
<i>an elderly man walking
and talking,</i>

694
00:39:02,568 --> 00:39:05,208
<i>but that man
is John Demjanjuk,</i>

695
00:39:05,249 --> 00:39:07,128
<i>the alleged Nazi
death camp guard,</i>

696
00:39:07,169 --> 00:39:09,529
<i>who claims he's too ill
and too frail</i>

697
00:39:09,569 --> 00:39:12,249
<i>to be deported to Europe
to go on trial.</i>

698
00:39:12,289 --> 00:39:14,888
<i>Federal prosecutors
submitted these videos</i>

699
00:39:14,928 --> 00:39:17,089
<i>to the US Circuit
Court of Appeals.</i>

700
00:39:17,128 --> 00:39:19,929
<i>They were taken a few days
before he was detained.</i>

701
00:39:26,649 --> 00:39:29,328
<i> One of the things the
Demjanjuk tried to do in Munich,</i>

702
00:39:29,368 --> 00:39:31,329
is he tried to basically

703
00:39:31,368 --> 00:39:33,608
create the impression
of being incompetent.

704
00:39:39,248 --> 00:39:40,688
He actually engaged

705
00:39:40,728 --> 00:39:43,129
<i>in a rather dramatic
theatrical performance</i>

706
00:39:43,169 --> 00:39:45,049
<i>in which he tried
to convince everyone</i>

707
00:39:45,089 --> 00:39:46,928
<i>that he was kind of
on death's door.</i>

708
00:39:46,969 --> 00:39:48,568
Oh!

709
00:39:48,609 --> 00:39:52,408
<i>Oy, oy, oy, oy,
oy, oy, oy!</i>

710
00:39:52,449 --> 00:39:54,689
First of all, the problem
is that Demjanjuk himself,

711
00:39:54,728 --> 00:39:57,128
I think, put on a great act
today, and he's gonna

712
00:39:57,168 --> 00:40:00,008
<i>do everything possible
to try and create</i>

713
00:40:00,048 --> 00:40:03,488
<i>an impression that he's simply
incapable of standing trial.</i>

714
00:40:03,527 --> 00:40:05,768
<i>If you've seen the
footage of the Demjanjuk trial,</i>

715
00:40:05,808 --> 00:40:07,448
he looked like
a total zombie,

716
00:40:07,488 --> 00:40:09,368
like he didn't have a clue
what was going on.

717
00:40:09,408 --> 00:40:11,528
And what most people don't
know is that the minute

718
00:40:11,568 --> 00:40:13,448
<i>the trial sessions ended every
day, he was up and around,</i>

719
00:40:13,488 --> 00:40:15,368
<i>walking around,
joking around with the people.</i>

720
00:40:15,408 --> 00:40:17,288
It has been a common ruse
in Nazi cases

721
00:40:17,328 --> 00:40:21,288
<i>for decades to claim
either a medical incapacity</i>

722
00:40:21,328 --> 00:40:23,528
<i>or a mental health incapacity</i>

723
00:40:23,568 --> 00:40:25,728
<i>to continue with the trial.</i>

724
00:40:27,688 --> 00:40:29,608
<i>Some courts have fallen
for those ruses,</i>

725
00:40:29,648 --> 00:40:31,568
<i>others have not.</i>

726
00:40:32,968 --> 00:40:35,969
But it is a very,
very common ploy.

727
00:40:36,008 --> 00:40:38,048
<i> I always say that</i>
<i>if there was an Oscar given</i>

728
00:40:38,087 --> 00:40:41,008
<i>for the best performance
by a Nazi war criminal,</i>

729
00:40:41,048 --> 00:40:43,288
Demjanjuk would have
gotten it for 2010.

730
00:40:43,329 --> 00:40:46,048
<i>Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!</i>

731
00:40:46,088 --> 00:40:48,409
Oh!

732
00:40:49,648 --> 00:40:51,848
We now know that
in fact he was

733
00:40:51,888 --> 00:40:53,768
<i>rather healthy at the time,
and he did</i>

734
00:40:53,808 --> 00:40:55,888
<i>successfully survive
his trial.</i>

735
00:40:55,928 --> 00:40:58,168
In a verdict
decades in the making,

736
00:40:58,208 --> 00:41:01,608
a German court has found
91-year-old John Demjanjuk

737
00:41:01,648 --> 00:41:03,649
guilty of accessory to murder

738
00:41:03,688 --> 00:41:05,608
in the case
of more than 28,000 Jews

739
00:41:05,648 --> 00:41:07,568
in Nazi-occupied Poland.

740
00:41:07,609 --> 00:41:10,727
John Demjanjuk
is just a scapegoat

741
00:41:10,768 --> 00:41:12,528
for the Germans.

742
00:41:12,568 --> 00:41:16,648
He has to pay for all the
mistakes they made in the past,

743
00:41:16,688 --> 00:41:18,648
and that's not justice.

744
00:41:18,688 --> 00:41:22,168
What was very important
about the trial in Germany

745
00:41:22,208 --> 00:41:25,448
<i>was in a way
it was the exact opposite</i>

746
00:41:25,488 --> 00:41:27,328
<i>of the Ivan the Terrible trial.</i>

747
00:41:27,368 --> 00:41:29,048
<i>Ivan the Terrible
trial focused</i>

748
00:41:29,088 --> 00:41:31,888
<i>on the particular pathologies</i>

749
00:41:31,928 --> 00:41:34,408
<i>of a very brutal guard.</i>

750
00:41:34,448 --> 00:41:36,568
<i>The trial in Munich</i>

751
00:41:36,608 --> 00:41:39,448
<i>was really the first trial
to come along and say,</i>

752
00:41:39,488 --> 00:41:41,728
<i>"We don't really care
if you were cruel or not.</i>

753
00:41:41,768 --> 00:41:45,208
Your job description
was basically facilitating

754
00:41:45,248 --> 00:41:48,208
<i>an act of extermination,
and that's why we're going</i>

755
00:41:48,248 --> 00:41:50,968
<i>to hold you guilty
in a court of law."</i>

756
00:41:51,008 --> 00:41:54,728
<i>You were an accessory to murder
because, by definition,</i>

757
00:41:54,768 --> 00:41:57,328
<i>that was
your job description.</i>

758
00:41:57,368 --> 00:42:00,968
The following year,
<i>Demjanjuk died in Germany</i>

759
00:42:01,008 --> 00:42:03,329
<i>while his case was on appeal.</i>

760
00:42:03,368 --> 00:42:06,287
<i>But the precedent
of court agreeing</i>

761
00:42:06,328 --> 00:42:08,728
<i>that someone who served
as a guard</i>

762
00:42:08,769 --> 00:42:10,888
<i>at a death camp
shared complicity</i>

763
00:42:10,928 --> 00:42:12,889
<i>in the killings
that took part there</i>

764
00:42:12,929 --> 00:42:15,528
inspired, shall we say,
German prosecutors

765
00:42:15,568 --> 00:42:18,208
to prosecute other guards.

766
00:42:18,248 --> 00:42:20,728
<i>Prosecutors in
Germany are reopening hundreds</i>

767
00:42:20,768 --> 00:42:23,288
<i>of investigations
into former Nazis.</i>

768
00:42:23,329 --> 00:42:26,369
So why has it taken so long
to bring these people to trial?

769
00:42:26,408 --> 00:42:28,367
This is the uniqueness
and significance

770
00:42:28,408 --> 00:42:30,169
of the Demjanjuk conviction.

771
00:42:30,209 --> 00:42:34,009
<i>Basically what the court in Munich
said in May was, if you served</i>

772
00:42:34,049 --> 00:42:37,208
<i>as an armed SS guard
at a pure death camp,</i>

773
00:42:37,248 --> 00:42:40,128
you're automatically guilty
of accessory to murder.

774
00:42:40,167 --> 00:42:43,288
This gave the German
prosecution a new lease on life.

775
00:42:43,328 --> 00:42:46,088
Now the question then was,
how many of these people are alive?

776
00:42:52,408 --> 00:42:54,567
<i>After the Demjanjuk verdict,</i>

777
00:42:54,608 --> 00:42:57,447
<i>the central office
here started</i>

778
00:42:57,488 --> 00:42:59,568
<i>to look again</i>

779
00:42:59,608 --> 00:43:01,768
at all the six death camps.

780
00:43:03,688 --> 00:43:06,448
<i>We put together
all these puzzle pieces</i>

781
00:43:06,488 --> 00:43:08,128
<i>in order to get an image</i>

782
00:43:08,168 --> 00:43:10,688
<i>who was involved in a crime.</i>

783
00:43:10,727 --> 00:43:12,888
Yeah. There it is,
right here.

784
00:43:15,608 --> 00:43:19,169
<i>Germany is making
up for it with what it's got.</i>

785
00:43:19,208 --> 00:43:21,968
There's slim pickings these
days for Nazi war criminals.

786
00:43:22,008 --> 00:43:25,928
Many of them are dead.
And many of the survivors are dead.

787
00:43:25,967 --> 00:43:27,848
<i>It's not as if the German
government has its choice</i>

788
00:43:27,887 --> 00:43:30,408
<i>of a wide variety
of players to go after.</i>

789
00:43:31,608 --> 00:43:34,369
<i>Now I got a tip
from Simon Wiesenthal</i>

790
00:43:34,408 --> 00:43:36,768
<i>in the early 1980s.</i>

791
00:43:36,807 --> 00:43:41,848
<i>Mr. Wiesenthal told me that there
was a Nazi named Haralds Puntulis,</i>

792
00:43:41,888 --> 00:43:43,768
<i>who was living in Canada,</i>

793
00:43:43,808 --> 00:43:45,889
<i>but his whereabouts
were unknown.</i>

794
00:43:45,928 --> 00:43:48,688
<i>And Puntulis took part
in the massacre</i>

795
00:43:48,728 --> 00:43:51,328
<i>of more than 5,000
Jews and Roma</i>

796
00:43:51,368 --> 00:43:54,728
<i>in a village in Latvia.
He wasn't hard to find.</i>

797
00:43:56,007 --> 00:43:57,088
<i>I found him,</i>

798
00:43:57,128 --> 00:43:59,248
<i>gardening in Willowdale,</i>

799
00:43:59,288 --> 00:44:01,249
<i>which ironically enough,</i>

800
00:44:01,288 --> 00:44:04,248
has a great many Jewish people
who live there.

801
00:44:04,289 --> 00:44:06,128
<i>But, just before
the authorities could act,</i>

802
00:44:06,168 --> 00:44:09,528
<i>and before my article
exposing him came out,</i>

803
00:44:09,568 --> 00:44:11,087
<i>Puntulis died.</i>

804
00:44:11,128 --> 00:44:13,967
There is this real rush then
to find people, anyone.

805
00:44:14,008 --> 00:44:17,528
But as you can imagine,
they're all extraordinarily old.

806
00:44:19,768 --> 00:44:23,248
<i>There are very few of them who
are still fit to stand trial.</i>

807
00:44:23,288 --> 00:44:26,048
<i>So there is this feeling
that now,</i>

808
00:44:26,088 --> 00:44:29,528
<i>before it's too late,
we need to do everything we can</i>

809
00:44:29,568 --> 00:44:31,608
<i>to bring every last
Nazi to trial.</i>

810
00:44:35,408 --> 00:44:37,248
<i>As the long list of people</i>

811
00:44:37,287 --> 00:44:39,809
<i>that they believed were Nazi
war criminals became smaller,</i>

812
00:44:39,848 --> 00:44:42,848
<i>an accountant from Auschwitz
was singled out.</i>

813
00:44:42,887 --> 00:44:45,208
<i>He was put under the spotlight
because of an interview</i>

814
00:44:45,248 --> 00:44:48,008
<i>that he did for the BBC,
where he openly admitted</i>

815
00:44:48,048 --> 00:44:49,808
<i>and described in detail</i>

816
00:44:49,848 --> 00:44:53,888
<i>the crimes that were being
committed in Auschwitz.</i>

817
00:44:53,928 --> 00:44:57,368
You were part of the
largest killing factory in history.

818
00:44:57,408 --> 00:44:58,728
You were working there.

819
00:44:58,768 --> 00:45:00,528
You personally contributed

820
00:45:00,568 --> 00:45:03,608
to the killing of around
one million people.

821
00:45:03,649 --> 00:45:05,729
Don't you think you should
have stood trial?

822
00:45:08,368 --> 00:45:09,807
No, I don't think so.

823
00:45:13,088 --> 00:45:15,928
You imply with your question
that just being a member

824
00:45:15,968 --> 00:45:18,488
of a large group of people
who lived in a garrison

825
00:45:18,528 --> 00:45:20,768
where the destruction
of the Jews took place

826
00:45:20,808 --> 00:45:23,048
is enough to make you
a criminal.

827
00:45:28,208 --> 00:45:31,047
He was an accomplice.
He knew what he was doing.

828
00:45:31,088 --> 00:45:34,208
<i> But what he didn't know was
that the interview with the BBC</i>

829
00:45:34,248 --> 00:45:36,208
<i>would ultimately spark
the investigation,</i>

830
00:45:36,248 --> 00:45:38,567
<i>because at that time,
before Demjanjuk,</i>

831
00:45:38,607 --> 00:45:41,648
<i>guards were not seen
as being complicit.</i>

832
00:45:41,688 --> 00:45:43,687
<i>And for decades,
he lived peacefully</i>

833
00:45:43,728 --> 00:45:46,127
<i>in a small town
outside of Luneburg.</i>

834
00:45:46,168 --> 00:45:48,368
They got Groening.
They went after him.

835
00:45:53,729 --> 00:45:54,728
No.

836
00:45:56,609 --> 00:45:58,887
Carla has prepared my lunch.

837
00:45:58,928 --> 00:46:02,128
So we'll let her prepare it
when she's ready to serve it.

838
00:46:06,048 --> 00:46:09,408
- Okay. You gonna eat?
- Hi, Benji.

839
00:46:09,447 --> 00:46:12,327
- Good morning!
- Hi, Benji.

840
00:46:12,368 --> 00:46:15,768
<i>There are many trials being carried on
now, which are remarkable.</i>

841
00:46:15,809 --> 00:46:20,208
<i>Old people who have managed to
evade justice for many years.</i>

842
00:46:20,248 --> 00:46:22,488
It doesn't make
a very big difference

843
00:46:22,529 --> 00:46:26,208
whether they spend
some time in jail or not.

844
00:46:26,248 --> 00:46:28,928
On the principle,
it does make a difference.

845
00:46:28,968 --> 00:46:31,169
They should know that they're
not going to get away with it.

846
00:46:31,208 --> 00:46:34,488
We'll pursue them wherever
they are as long as necessary

847
00:46:34,528 --> 00:46:37,167
and try to have them
explain their actions.

848
00:46:41,048 --> 00:46:43,207
<i>If you know that he was
a guard in a camp</i>

849
00:46:43,248 --> 00:46:45,168
<i>which killed your father,
your mother, your grandfather,</i>

850
00:46:45,208 --> 00:46:48,048
<i>don't you have to have
some consideration</i>

851
00:46:48,088 --> 00:46:50,607
<i>for the victims,
rather than the perpetrator?</i>

852
00:46:54,209 --> 00:46:57,008
<i>Our argument about the case</i>

853
00:46:57,048 --> 00:47:00,848
was that the things that
Mr. Groening did in Auschwitz

854
00:47:00,888 --> 00:47:04,007
<i>actually were not
some kind of support</i>

855
00:47:04,047 --> 00:47:06,087
<i>of killing the people
who had been</i>

856
00:47:06,128 --> 00:47:08,888
<i>transported to Auschwitz
at that time.</i>

857
00:47:08,928 --> 00:47:11,008
Of course he supported
the system,

858
00:47:11,047 --> 00:47:12,848
<i>but not the killing itself.</i>

859
00:47:12,888 --> 00:47:15,208
<i> Many SS members</i>
<i>here in Germany,</i>

860
00:47:15,248 --> 00:47:17,647
in former trials,
they often said,

861
00:47:17,688 --> 00:47:18,888
"Well, I didn't kill them!

862
00:47:18,928 --> 00:47:21,447
They were killed by a...
by a machine."

863
00:47:21,487 --> 00:47:25,127
His position as a subordinate
was quite clear.

864
00:47:25,167 --> 00:47:26,768
He was not
a high ranking officer.

865
00:47:26,808 --> 00:47:30,288
<i>He was not in a sort
of position to give orders.</i>

866
00:47:30,328 --> 00:47:34,128
This is the question.
Who is responsible?

867
00:47:37,088 --> 00:47:38,968
Groening was a cog
in the wheel,

868
00:47:39,008 --> 00:47:43,247
but the wheel couldn't
have turned without that cog.

869
00:47:43,287 --> 00:47:45,408
Individual killing
is not a requisite.

870
00:47:45,447 --> 00:47:48,888
<i>There is no evidence that
Hitler personally killed anybody</i>

871
00:47:48,929 --> 00:47:51,448
<i>at Auschwitz, or any Jew.</i>

872
00:47:51,488 --> 00:47:53,688
<i>Everybody who was aware</i>

873
00:47:53,729 --> 00:47:56,368
<i>of what was going on
at Auschwitz</i>

874
00:47:56,408 --> 00:47:58,767
<i>is both morally
and legally guilty.</i>

875
00:47:58,808 --> 00:48:01,288
<i>The chef,
less than the person</i>

876
00:48:01,328 --> 00:48:04,248
<i>who poured the gas
into the chambers.</i>

877
00:48:04,288 --> 00:48:07,407
<i>The accountant,
less than the guard.</i>

878
00:48:07,448 --> 00:48:09,568
But he made
choices throughout

879
00:48:09,607 --> 00:48:11,407
and he is responsible
for his choices.

880
00:48:11,448 --> 00:48:13,408
Groening was not just
an accountant.

881
00:48:13,447 --> 00:48:15,887
He's known as the
"Bookkeeper of Auschwitz"

882
00:48:15,927 --> 00:48:17,967
and the "Bookkeeper
of Auschwitz" creates,

883
00:48:18,008 --> 00:48:19,887
I think, a somewhat
misleading image.

884
00:48:19,928 --> 00:48:23,047
It suggests that he could
have been just squirrelled away

885
00:48:23,088 --> 00:48:26,208
<i>in some little shack
adding up numbers.</i>

886
00:48:26,248 --> 00:48:32,008
He came to Auschwitz
specifically as a bookkeeper.

887
00:48:32,048 --> 00:48:35,008
But it took much more
than bookkeeping.

888
00:48:35,048 --> 00:48:36,808
<i>He also had to look
after the system.</i>

889
00:48:36,848 --> 00:48:39,488
<i>And he was seen
on the ramp.</i>

890
00:48:39,527 --> 00:48:42,208
<i>This is the ramp where
it's kind of in the collective</i>

891
00:48:42,247 --> 00:48:45,608
<i>or popular imagination from</i>
<i>films like</i> Schindler's List.

892
00:48:45,647 --> 00:48:49,208
<i>This is when the SS
are sorting people out,</i>

893
00:48:49,248 --> 00:48:52,248
<i>saying these people are being
exterminated immediately,</i>

894
00:48:52,288 --> 00:48:54,848
<i>and this small group
is actually entering</i>

895
00:48:54,887 --> 00:48:58,008
<i>the prison population
of the camp.</i>

896
00:48:58,048 --> 00:49:00,047
<i>If you look at something
like Auschwitz,</i>

897
00:49:00,087 --> 00:49:02,488
<i>why weren't more
of the guards prosecuted?</i>

898
00:49:02,528 --> 00:49:05,927
Well, Auschwitz
was a hybrid camp.

899
00:49:05,967 --> 00:49:08,768
<i>It was part
slave labor camp,</i>

900
00:49:08,807 --> 00:49:11,088
<i>and it was part death camp.</i>

901
00:49:11,128 --> 00:49:13,208
<i>If these guards
were just associated</i>

902
00:49:13,248 --> 00:49:15,168
<i>with the slave labor aspect,</i>

903
00:49:15,208 --> 00:49:17,767
then you wouldn't
necessarily know

904
00:49:17,808 --> 00:49:21,167
that they actually were
involved with the killing.

905
00:49:21,207 --> 00:49:23,448
And if you didn't know they
were involved with the killing,

906
00:49:23,488 --> 00:49:27,288
<i>you couldn't prosecute them
for anything under German law.</i>

907
00:49:27,328 --> 00:49:28,847
<i>In the case of Groening,</i>

908
00:49:28,887 --> 00:49:33,048
we know that Groening was
at Auschwitz for a long time.

909
00:49:33,088 --> 00:49:34,688
He was there for two years.

910
00:49:34,727 --> 00:49:36,368
<i>But if you look
at the indictment,</i>

911
00:49:36,408 --> 00:49:39,928
<i>the indictment focuses only
on a three-month period.</i>

912
00:49:39,968 --> 00:49:41,487
<i>During this
three-month period,</i>

913
00:49:41,527 --> 00:49:44,647
<i>that's when the trains
were arriving</i>

914
00:49:44,688 --> 00:49:49,528
<i>with these hundreds of
thousands of Jews from Hungary.</i>

915
00:49:49,568 --> 00:49:51,328
<i> In this case,</i>

916
00:49:51,367 --> 00:49:55,367
the Hungarian Action
is the crime.

917
00:49:55,408 --> 00:49:57,687
<i>From the 16th of May</i>

918
00:49:57,728 --> 00:50:00,608
<i>until the 11th of July,</i>

919
00:50:00,647 --> 00:50:04,847
<i>there has been killed
300,000 Jews.</i>

920
00:50:04,888 --> 00:50:09,008
<i>If we can prove
that Groening has been</i>

921
00:50:09,048 --> 00:50:13,368
<i>on one day in this time
on the ramp,</i>

922
00:50:13,408 --> 00:50:16,808
then he is guilty
of the whole crime.

923
00:50:18,407 --> 00:50:21,248
<i>The witnesses arrived
on a certain day</i>

924
00:50:21,287 --> 00:50:25,248
<i>at a certain hour during this
"Hungarian Action."</i>

925
00:50:25,288 --> 00:50:29,008
<i>Important is that
the witnesses talk about</i>

926
00:50:29,048 --> 00:50:31,648
<i>what happened
with their families,</i>

927
00:50:31,687 --> 00:50:34,368
<i>that they speak
about their sadness,</i>

928
00:50:34,407 --> 00:50:36,247
<i>they speak about the loss.</i>

929
00:50:37,767 --> 00:50:41,807
Tomorrow, Bill,
you have to testify.

930
00:50:41,847 --> 00:50:44,487
Speak slowly, but fluently.

931
00:50:44,528 --> 00:50:48,007
And don't think about
the faces of the judges.

932
00:50:48,047 --> 00:50:50,647
This is a special thing
as far as I'm concerned.

933
00:50:50,688 --> 00:50:54,567
It's a very important,
emotional thing.

934
00:50:54,607 --> 00:50:57,088
The criminal department
of justice

935
00:50:57,128 --> 00:51:00,008
has made a lot of faults,

936
00:51:00,047 --> 00:51:01,607
very heavy faults.

937
00:51:01,648 --> 00:51:04,367
And I invite
the German justice system

938
00:51:04,408 --> 00:51:06,368
to come back
in a better way.

939
00:51:10,968 --> 00:51:14,087
<i> The time came for us</i>
<i>to testify at the trial.</i>

940
00:51:15,607 --> 00:51:19,208
<i>I sat down in front
of the presiding judge.</i>

941
00:51:19,247 --> 00:51:21,568
<i>Thomas Walther
sat next to me,</i>

942
00:51:21,607 --> 00:51:25,047
<i>and then the judge asked me
to describe what happened</i>

943
00:51:25,087 --> 00:51:27,527
<i>when I arrived
to Auschwitz-Birkenau.</i>

944
00:51:30,688 --> 00:51:32,248
<i>Then train stopped.</i>

945
00:51:32,288 --> 00:51:35,087
<i>After a while, all of a sudden,
the doors were opened.</i>

946
00:51:35,128 --> 00:51:37,448
<i>"Everybody out!
Get out of the boxcar!</i>

947
00:51:37,487 --> 00:51:39,887
Leave your parcels in there!
You'll get them later."

948
00:51:40,847 --> 00:51:41,888
<i> It was a space</i>

949
00:51:41,927 --> 00:51:45,008
<i>filled with people
running around,</i>

950
00:51:45,048 --> 00:51:47,287
<i>some in striped pajamas</i>

951
00:51:47,328 --> 00:51:50,648
<i>and a lot of soldiers
with rifles.</i>

952
00:51:50,688 --> 00:51:53,927
Dogs on leash that were
straining against the leash

953
00:51:53,967 --> 00:51:55,608
and barking at us.

954
00:51:55,648 --> 00:51:58,647
<i>The people pouring out
from the wagons,</i>

955
00:51:58,687 --> 00:52:00,567
<i>thousands of people,</i>

956
00:52:00,607 --> 00:52:04,608
<i>babies crying,
mothers holding them.</i>

957
00:52:04,647 --> 00:52:09,088
They started screaming,
"Men and boys into one column.

958
00:52:09,128 --> 00:52:11,687
<i>Five in a row, fast! Fast!"</i>

959
00:52:11,728 --> 00:52:14,007
<i>I grabbed a hold
of my dad's hand</i>

960
00:52:14,047 --> 00:52:18,407
<i>and stood there, and my mom,
my sister and aunts,</i>

961
00:52:18,448 --> 00:52:21,807
<i>my grandma were in the
other column with the women.</i>

962
00:52:21,847 --> 00:52:23,927
<i>They were screaming
and yelling.</i>

963
00:52:23,968 --> 00:52:26,927
People were so traumatized,
so scared.

964
00:52:28,807 --> 00:52:32,367
<i>So there is that Nazi
yelling in German, "Twins! Twins!"</i>

965
00:52:32,407 --> 00:52:35,648
My poor mother hesitated
and said, "Is that good?"

966
00:52:36,487 --> 00:52:39,007
<i>And the Nazi nodded "yes."</i>

967
00:52:39,047 --> 00:52:41,368
<i>So my mother said, "Yes."</i>

968
00:52:41,408 --> 00:52:43,727
<i>At that moment
another Nazi came,</i>

969
00:52:43,767 --> 00:52:47,528
pulled my mother to the right,
we were pulled to the left.

970
00:52:47,567 --> 00:52:50,048
We were crying,
she was crying.

971
00:52:50,087 --> 00:52:52,527
<i>I didn't really understand</i>

972
00:52:52,567 --> 00:52:56,608
<i>that this would be the last
time that we would see her.</i>

973
00:52:56,647 --> 00:53:00,367
<i>My mother, with my siblings,
my grandparents and my aunt,</i>

974
00:53:01,367 --> 00:53:03,808
<i>they were told to go
to the left.</i>

975
00:53:03,848 --> 00:53:07,648
I know they were taken into the
gas chamber of Krematoria II.

976
00:53:07,688 --> 00:53:11,047
<i>My father and uncle and I,
we were selected for slave labor.</i>

977
00:53:11,087 --> 00:53:13,487
<i>We were processed.
Our clothes were taken away,</i>

978
00:53:13,527 --> 00:53:15,767
<i>our hair was shaved.
And the next morning,</i>

979
00:53:15,808 --> 00:53:18,727
we were given a tattooed
number and striped outfits.

980
00:53:18,767 --> 00:53:22,767
And I became a slave labor
working for a German Reich.

981
00:53:25,167 --> 00:53:29,287
<i> Mengele used</i>
<i>1,500 sets of twins</i>

982
00:53:29,327 --> 00:53:32,367
<i>in his various experiments.</i>

983
00:53:32,408 --> 00:53:34,087
<i>Take a set of twins,</i>

984
00:53:34,127 --> 00:53:35,647
<i>inject one with a disease.</i>

985
00:53:35,687 --> 00:53:37,728
<i>When that one dies,
you kill the other one,</i>

986
00:53:37,767 --> 00:53:41,487
<i>and then you get the results
of how the disease works.</i>

987
00:53:41,527 --> 00:53:44,967
After one of those
injections, I became very ill

988
00:53:45,008 --> 00:53:47,087
with a very high fever.

989
00:53:47,127 --> 00:53:48,568
<i>Next morning,</i>

990
00:53:48,608 --> 00:53:51,608
<i>Mengele came in
with four other doctors.</i>

991
00:53:51,648 --> 00:53:55,047
<i>He looked at my fever chart
and then he declared,</i>

992
00:53:55,087 --> 00:53:58,687
<i>laughing sarcastically
he said, "Too bad.</i>

993
00:53:58,727 --> 00:54:02,208
She's so young,
she has only two weeks to live."

994
00:54:02,247 --> 00:54:05,127
<i>But after two weeks,
my fever broke.</i>

995
00:54:05,168 --> 00:54:06,848
<i>I survived,</i>

996
00:54:06,887 --> 00:54:10,607
<i>and I was released and
reunited with my twin sister</i>

997
00:54:10,648 --> 00:54:11,808
<i>and the other twins.</i>

998
00:54:18,727 --> 00:54:21,047
<i>While I was looking around,</i>

999
00:54:21,088 --> 00:54:23,687
<i>trying to make sense
of what I'm looking at,</i>

1000
00:54:23,727 --> 00:54:27,087
I realized all of a sudden
that I was alone

1001
00:54:27,128 --> 00:54:30,327
and my mother was
several rows ahead of me,

1002
00:54:30,367 --> 00:54:32,728
<i>and I started rushing
through the crowds</i>

1003
00:54:32,768 --> 00:54:34,287
<i>to catch up to her.</i>

1004
00:54:34,327 --> 00:54:37,327
<i>And all of a sudden
I was stopped.</i>

1005
00:54:37,367 --> 00:54:39,527
A rifle in front of me,

1006
00:54:39,567 --> 00:54:43,807
and a young German soldier
telling me,

1007
00:54:43,847 --> 00:54:47,008
<i>"Nein!</i> Over there!
To the right!"

1008
00:54:47,047 --> 00:54:51,087
<i>I said, "No, no, my mother is
there, I want to go with her!"</i>

1009
00:54:51,128 --> 00:54:53,007
<i>And he just kept
the rifle there</i>

1010
00:54:53,048 --> 00:54:56,567
and said,
"No! You go there!"

1011
00:54:56,608 --> 00:55:00,327
And then I cried out
after my mom,

1012
00:55:00,367 --> 00:55:02,528
and she turned.

1013
00:55:02,567 --> 00:55:06,007
<i>And I don't know
what I expected,</i>

1014
00:55:06,047 --> 00:55:10,567
<i>but she just looked at me
and didn't say a word.</i>

1015
00:55:10,607 --> 00:55:13,047
And then turned around
and kept on going.

1016
00:55:14,647 --> 00:55:15,968
And I never saw her again.

1017
00:55:17,327 --> 00:55:20,928
<i>That was, I think,
the hardest thing</i>

1018
00:55:22,287 --> 00:55:24,007
that ever happened to me.

1019
00:55:31,687 --> 00:55:36,408
Even now I have trouble
talking about it.

1020
00:55:36,448 --> 00:55:39,328
And for over half a century,
I couldn't.

1021
00:55:42,688 --> 00:55:45,367
<i>What happened
to my mom and my sister,</i>

1022
00:55:45,407 --> 00:55:48,448
<i>I don't know.</i>

1023
00:55:48,487 --> 00:55:52,127
<i>But I've never seen them again,
never said goodbye to them.</i>

1024
00:55:52,167 --> 00:55:55,448
<i>They just disappeared
from my life at that moment.</i>

1025
00:56:13,728 --> 00:56:15,727
Oh, here.

1026
00:56:15,768 --> 00:56:18,087
Here is my father.
"Glied, Alexander,

1027
00:56:18,127 --> 00:56:21,647
1899, Petrovac, Yugoslavia.

1028
00:56:21,687 --> 00:56:23,887
Murdered in Kaufering,
Germany."

1029
00:56:26,328 --> 00:56:29,767
Here is my sister.
"Glied, Aniko, 1936,

1030
00:56:29,807 --> 00:56:32,247
Subotica, Yugoslavia.

1031
00:56:32,287 --> 00:56:34,487
Murdered in
Auschwitz, Poland."

1032
00:56:39,488 --> 00:56:43,087
Here is my mom.
"Glied, Miriam, 1907,

1033
00:56:43,127 --> 00:56:45,167
Jaszkarajeno, Hungary.

1034
00:56:45,207 --> 00:56:47,207
Murdered in
Auschwitz, Poland."

1035
00:56:48,288 --> 00:56:50,566
Oh, my God.

1036
00:56:50,607 --> 00:56:54,406
All of these Glieds
are relatives...

1037
00:56:55,767 --> 00:56:57,728
uncles and aunts of mine.

1038
00:57:42,927 --> 00:57:45,088
He spoke about
this whole situation as

1039
00:57:45,127 --> 00:57:48,888
<i>"there was this bug
on the ground,</i>

1040
00:57:48,928 --> 00:57:50,727
<i>and I stepped on it."</i>

1041
00:57:50,767 --> 00:57:53,327
To see the faces
of the survivors

1042
00:57:53,367 --> 00:57:55,287
after Groening spoke...

1043
00:57:56,167 --> 00:57:58,047
<i>it was a terrible situation</i>

1044
00:57:58,087 --> 00:58:01,167
<i>when he explained some
stories out of his work.</i>

1045
00:58:02,048 --> 00:58:03,968
Like the crying suitcase.

1046
00:58:33,888 --> 00:58:36,567
<i> And he said,</i>
<i>"The crying stopped."</i>

1047
00:58:36,608 --> 00:58:39,407
And that was...
I think that was,

1048
00:58:39,447 --> 00:58:42,287
it almost killed me.
I just couldn't believe it.

1049
00:58:42,327 --> 00:58:44,047
He said,
"That wasn't nice."

1050
00:58:46,127 --> 00:58:49,207
And later on they asked him,
"What would you have done?"

1051
00:58:50,328 --> 00:58:51,807
"Well, maybe shoot him.

1052
00:58:53,527 --> 00:58:57,166
That would have been
the nice thing for him."

1053
00:58:57,207 --> 00:58:59,327
<i> I accept the fact</i>
<i>that they were brainwashed,</i>

1054
00:58:59,367 --> 00:59:00,768
<i>but there comes a point</i>

1055
00:59:00,807 --> 00:59:02,887
<i>where no matter how much
you are brainwashed,</i>

1056
00:59:02,926 --> 00:59:04,966
when you see a baby
being picked up

1057
00:59:05,007 --> 00:59:07,007
and smashed against a door,
and you say,

1058
00:59:07,047 --> 00:59:10,087
<i>"This is fine. This is okay.
This is acceptable."</i>

1059
00:59:10,127 --> 00:59:11,647
<i>I can't accept that.</i>

1060
00:59:11,686 --> 00:59:15,847
I mean, he was giving
this information... willingly.

1061
00:59:15,887 --> 00:59:18,168
I mean, he was asked,

1062
00:59:18,208 --> 00:59:21,407
"Did a Jew have a chance
to leave this place alive?"

1063
00:59:23,127 --> 00:59:24,807
<i>He says, "Absolutely not."</i>

1064
00:59:26,127 --> 00:59:28,807
And that affected me
a lot, so...

1065
00:59:30,567 --> 00:59:32,727
<i> He was an adult.</i>

1066
00:59:32,767 --> 00:59:35,087
He was responsible
for his actions.

1067
00:59:35,127 --> 00:59:37,647
Not everybody who joined
the Hitler Youth

1068
00:59:37,687 --> 00:59:40,847
<i>ended up joining the SS.
Not everybody who joined the SS</i>

1069
00:59:40,887 --> 00:59:42,807
<i>ended up being a guard
at Auschwitz,</i>

1070
00:59:42,847 --> 00:59:44,486
<i>leading people
to their death.</i>

1071
00:59:44,527 --> 00:59:47,928
As far as following orders,
what one often hears is,

1072
00:59:47,968 --> 00:59:50,487
"I had to take part
in these crimes,

1073
00:59:50,527 --> 00:59:52,768
because had I not done so,

1074
00:59:52,807 --> 00:59:55,046
uh, the Germans
would have executed me

1075
00:59:55,087 --> 00:59:56,567
or sent me to a death camp."

1076
00:59:56,608 --> 00:59:59,007
One of the most
remarkable statistics

1077
00:59:59,047 --> 01:00:01,887
to emerge
out of the Holocaust

1078
01:00:01,927 --> 01:00:04,767
<i>is the number of SS officers,</i>

1079
01:00:04,807 --> 01:00:07,567
<i>or even
senior German officers,</i>

1080
01:00:07,607 --> 01:00:11,687
<i>who suffered serious
life-threatening consequences</i>

1081
01:00:11,727 --> 01:00:13,567
<i>as a result of opting out.</i>

1082
01:00:14,567 --> 01:00:17,487
That number is exactly zero.

1083
01:00:17,527 --> 01:00:20,806
Not one instance
has ever been found

1084
01:00:20,847 --> 01:00:22,528
in which it was confirmed

1085
01:00:22,567 --> 01:00:25,327
<i>that someone who disobeyed
criminal orders</i>

1086
01:00:25,367 --> 01:00:26,887
<i>was subject
to severe punishment,</i>

1087
01:00:26,927 --> 01:00:28,807
<i>much less execution.</i>

1088
01:00:28,847 --> 01:00:31,647
<i>He was following
orders, but he had to know</i>

1089
01:00:31,687 --> 01:00:35,366
at some level of consciousness
that it can't be legal

1090
01:00:35,407 --> 01:00:39,087
to murder infants,
babies, the elderly,

1091
01:00:39,127 --> 01:00:41,126
<i>to murder people
who are his age now.</i>

1092
01:00:41,167 --> 01:00:43,687
<i>He had to know that
that was not only wrong,</i>

1093
01:00:43,726 --> 01:00:46,127
but in some
ultimate sense, illegal.

1094
01:00:49,287 --> 01:00:52,527
You know, listening to
Groening, I got very upset,

1095
01:00:52,567 --> 01:00:57,967
because the things that he
brought forward voluntarily...

1096
01:00:58,007 --> 01:00:59,366
I mean, he was a big talker.

1097
01:00:59,407 --> 01:01:02,647
All I would want him
to say is, "I'm sorry."

1098
01:01:04,207 --> 01:01:06,327
That alone I think
would have been,

1099
01:01:06,367 --> 01:01:09,367
at the age of 94,
it would have meant everything,

1100
01:01:09,408 --> 01:01:11,846
as far as I was concerned.

1101
01:01:11,887 --> 01:01:14,487
Just those two words.

1102
01:01:14,527 --> 01:01:16,207
Somebody will have
to make the judgment,

1103
01:01:16,247 --> 01:01:20,206
and I think they are going
to consider our testimonies

1104
01:01:20,247 --> 01:01:21,967
and we'll see what happens.

1105
01:01:29,887 --> 01:01:32,966
I did not know how the
interaction with him would be.

1106
01:01:34,687 --> 01:01:40,167
I did not know how he would be
able to answer my questions,

1107
01:01:40,207 --> 01:01:43,127
<i>but nevertheless I testified,</i>

1108
01:01:43,168 --> 01:01:46,647
<i>and I said right there in a German
court, clear and loud,</i>

1109
01:01:46,687 --> 01:01:50,126
that I forgave him,
as I forgave all the Nazis,

1110
01:01:50,167 --> 01:01:52,287
and I forgave everybody
who hurt me.

1111
01:02:01,287 --> 01:02:03,287
It's outrageous what she did,
it's absolutely outrageous.

1112
01:02:03,328 --> 01:02:04,967
I felt like the floor
opened up

1113
01:02:05,007 --> 01:02:07,047
and I fell right down
into a basement.

1114
01:02:07,087 --> 01:02:08,927
She kept on
repeating the fact

1115
01:02:08,967 --> 01:02:11,127
that these people
are friends of hers.

1116
01:02:11,167 --> 01:02:14,246
And I said, "My God.
This woman must be crazy or what?"

1117
01:02:14,287 --> 01:02:18,647
Forgiving those
who tortured her

1118
01:02:18,688 --> 01:02:21,847
and killed so many,
so cruelly...

1119
01:02:21,887 --> 01:02:23,327
She's able to forgive.

1120
01:02:23,367 --> 01:02:25,327
Maybe she needs
that forgiveness

1121
01:02:25,367 --> 01:02:27,526
in order to go on, to be...

1122
01:02:27,566 --> 01:02:29,887
To stay mentally normal.

1123
01:02:29,927 --> 01:02:32,366
And what was even more shocking,
the people in the audience,

1124
01:02:32,407 --> 01:02:34,927
wherever they were,
they were clapping

1125
01:02:34,967 --> 01:02:37,607
this forgiveness thing,

1126
01:02:37,647 --> 01:02:41,487
and the judge said,
"Not in my court."

1127
01:02:41,527 --> 01:02:45,047
<i> Eva Mozes, you know her story.
You know she was a twin,</i>

1128
01:02:45,087 --> 01:02:46,647
<i>and she is...</i>

1129
01:02:46,687 --> 01:02:49,127
in every sense of the word,
she is a victim,

1130
01:02:49,167 --> 01:02:51,047
as all the other victims,

1131
01:02:51,087 --> 01:02:53,687
and she should be
treated like this.

1132
01:02:53,727 --> 01:02:56,767
<i>Saturday,
I was coming back to the United States.</i>

1133
01:02:56,807 --> 01:02:58,927
The court session was over.

1134
01:02:58,967 --> 01:03:01,286
<i>And he was still
sitting at his desk.</i>

1135
01:03:01,327 --> 01:03:03,927
<i>So, I went up
to Oskar Groening.</i>

1136
01:03:27,847 --> 01:03:31,407
<i> An embrace between
two people is touching people</i>

1137
01:03:31,447 --> 01:03:32,447
<i>around the world.</i>

1138
01:03:33,568 --> 01:03:36,167
We begin tonight
with an amazing story.

1139
01:03:36,207 --> 01:03:38,287
A Terre Haute woman
is at the center

1140
01:03:38,327 --> 01:03:40,366
of international attention.

1141
01:03:40,406 --> 01:03:43,087
This after a courageous
act of kindness

1142
01:03:43,127 --> 01:03:45,727
<i>that took social media
by storm.</i>

1143
01:03:50,207 --> 01:03:53,126
<i>She was the most
famous person in Luneburg</i>

1144
01:03:53,167 --> 01:03:55,206
because the world's press
were all around her.

1145
01:03:55,247 --> 01:03:58,847
<i>Everybody caught onto this
forgiveness business, you see.</i>

1146
01:03:58,886 --> 01:04:00,686
<i> The biggest gesture</i>
<i>you could imagine.</i>

1147
01:04:00,727 --> 01:04:02,647
You hug the monster,

1148
01:04:02,687 --> 01:04:05,087
<i>you hug part of the machine
that killed your family,</i>

1149
01:04:05,127 --> 01:04:06,208
<i>that almost killed you,</i>

1150
01:04:06,247 --> 01:04:08,526
<i>so it was a gesture
of forgiving,</i>

1151
01:04:08,567 --> 01:04:11,287
<i>but there was big media
headlines and big outcry</i>

1152
01:04:11,327 --> 01:04:13,647
<i>if she should do that,
if that is too much,</i>

1153
01:04:13,687 --> 01:04:17,047
<i>if one can forgive
part of the Nazi machine</i>

1154
01:04:17,087 --> 01:04:18,806
or if it just
should not be forgiven.

1155
01:04:18,847 --> 01:04:23,046
She has succeeded
in infuriating

1156
01:04:23,087 --> 01:04:26,207
<i>practically every other
survivor around,</i>

1157
01:04:26,247 --> 01:04:27,446
<i>and for good reason.</i>

1158
01:04:28,686 --> 01:04:30,527
<i> By forgiving,</i>

1159
01:04:30,566 --> 01:04:34,327
<i>I removed whatever
happened to me.</i>

1160
01:04:36,127 --> 01:04:38,006
She asked me many times
in the past,

1161
01:04:38,047 --> 01:04:40,206
"You have to forgive
your grandfather."

1162
01:04:40,247 --> 01:04:43,687
<i>And I said no,
I can't forgive him.</i>

1163
01:04:43,726 --> 01:04:46,687
<i>Not with all that stuff
he put on our shoulders.</i>

1164
01:04:47,527 --> 01:04:49,606
<i>But she has to deal with it.</i>

1165
01:04:49,646 --> 01:04:51,247
She has to stand it.

1166
01:04:51,287 --> 01:04:53,486
So it's up to her.

1167
01:04:53,527 --> 01:04:58,367
If that's the way for Eva
to live with it, I accept it.

1168
01:04:58,406 --> 01:05:00,807
The best way
to defeat an enemy

1169
01:05:00,847 --> 01:05:02,807
is to make him a friend.

1170
01:05:02,847 --> 01:05:06,327
I believe that I defeated
Oskar Groening

1171
01:05:07,206 --> 01:05:08,806
by making him a friend.

1172
01:05:10,926 --> 01:05:13,087
<i> Groening,</i>
<i>right after the war,</i>

1173
01:05:13,126 --> 01:05:15,887
decided to marry
the widow of his brother.

1174
01:05:16,646 --> 01:05:18,326
<i>He had two children,</i>

1175
01:05:18,367 --> 01:05:20,646
<i>and of course he lived
a peaceful life</i>

1176
01:05:20,687 --> 01:05:22,126
<i>and he enjoyed life.</i>

1177
01:05:22,166 --> 01:05:24,127
<i>A very important
thing for Mr. Groening</i>

1178
01:05:24,166 --> 01:05:26,727
<i>was in the middle of the '80s.</i>

1179
01:05:26,767 --> 01:05:29,647
<i>He was meeting somebody
who was collecting stamps,</i>

1180
01:05:29,687 --> 01:05:31,687
<i>like he himself did.</i>

1181
01:05:31,726 --> 01:05:33,887
They were talking
about the Nazi crimes

1182
01:05:33,926 --> 01:05:37,247
and the other person
denied the Holocaust.

1183
01:05:37,287 --> 01:05:40,087
He found it insufferable
that this guy

1184
01:05:40,127 --> 01:05:41,967
was going around saying
the Holocaust didn't happen.

1185
01:05:42,007 --> 01:05:44,007
He was in Auschwitz.
He could tell you that it happened.

1186
01:05:44,047 --> 01:05:46,967
He wanted to actually
come along and tell people,

1187
01:05:47,007 --> 01:05:50,847
<i>"Look, I was there,
I know that these crimes were committed."</i>

1188
01:05:50,887 --> 01:05:54,766
<i> He made some interviews
to the German news magazine</i> Spiegel

1189
01:05:54,806 --> 01:05:56,326
<i>and to the BBC.</i>

1190
01:05:56,367 --> 01:05:58,606
Before these interviews,
nobody knew Mr. Groening.

1191
01:06:20,567 --> 01:06:22,287
<i> He exposed himself.</i>

1192
01:06:22,327 --> 01:06:25,007
<i>And that was
a positive thing to do,</i>

1193
01:06:25,047 --> 01:06:26,847
<i>clearly, a courageous
thing to do.</i>

1194
01:06:26,886 --> 01:06:29,847
So, I think that's a very
important extenuating circumstance.

1195
01:06:29,887 --> 01:06:31,887
And to me,

1196
01:06:31,927 --> 01:06:34,647
that would have been sufficient
reason to not prosecute him.

1197
01:06:34,687 --> 01:06:38,166
Mr. Groening, what do you say
to those who still deny the Holocaust?

1198
01:06:38,207 --> 01:06:41,487
Nothing.
They are hopelessly lost.

1199
01:07:00,447 --> 01:07:03,447
<i> Mr. Groening</i>
<i>made a long statement</i>

1200
01:07:03,487 --> 01:07:05,006
about the things
he did in Auschwitz,

1201
01:07:05,046 --> 01:07:07,886
and he confessed
that in a moral way,

1202
01:07:07,926 --> 01:07:11,686
he is guilty in the Holocaust.
In the end, um,

1203
01:07:11,726 --> 01:07:14,207
the decision whether
he is guilty or not

1204
01:07:14,247 --> 01:07:15,967
has to be taken
by the court,

1205
01:07:16,006 --> 01:07:19,046
and that cannot be made
by Mr. Groening.

1206
01:07:19,087 --> 01:07:23,846
Groening is testifying.
He is not acting sick.

1207
01:07:23,887 --> 01:07:27,607
He is the same age
as Demjanjuk

1208
01:07:27,647 --> 01:07:32,006
but he is not wearing a
baseball cap or lying in bed.

1209
01:07:32,046 --> 01:07:34,367
<i>Oh,
I think the testimony of Oskar Groening</i>

1210
01:07:34,406 --> 01:07:36,726
<i>is very, very important.</i>

1211
01:07:36,767 --> 01:07:40,366
He is a hands-on
participant observer

1212
01:07:40,406 --> 01:07:43,446
who puts the lie to all
the Holocaust deniers who say,

1213
01:07:43,487 --> 01:07:45,166
<i>"There were no gas chambers,</i>

1214
01:07:45,206 --> 01:07:47,967
<i>there were no crematoria,
there was no Zyklon."</i>

1215
01:07:48,007 --> 01:07:49,527
<i>He puts the lie
to all of that.</i>

1216
01:07:49,567 --> 01:07:50,487
<i>He was there.</i>

1217
01:07:50,527 --> 01:07:52,486
<i>He saw it with his own eyes.</i>

1218
01:07:52,527 --> 01:07:56,726
And yet the Holocaust deniers
can't accept the reality

1219
01:07:56,766 --> 01:07:59,407
of what he's saying,
and he deserves some credit

1220
01:07:59,447 --> 01:08:03,967
<i>for having testified
to the truth of what he saw.</i>

1221
01:08:04,006 --> 01:08:06,207
The truth of the matter is,
you know, in 1945,

1222
01:08:06,247 --> 01:08:08,767
<i>at the end of the war and
the discovery of the camps</i>

1223
01:08:08,806 --> 01:08:12,126
<i>and the horror
of the Nazis' crimes,</i>

1224
01:08:12,166 --> 01:08:15,287
<i>the phrase "never again"
was coined.</i>

1225
01:08:15,327 --> 01:08:17,727
<i>The only problem is
there's nothing behind it.</i>

1226
01:08:17,767 --> 01:08:20,247
In other words,
there have been so many tragedies,

1227
01:08:20,287 --> 01:08:23,127
<i>similar, but not equal to
the Holocaust over the years</i>

1228
01:08:23,167 --> 01:08:26,807
<i>that this "NEVER AGAIN" basically
is absolutely meaningless.</i>

1229
01:08:26,847 --> 01:08:30,207
It's too dangerous today.
The world is different, it's changing.

1230
01:08:30,247 --> 01:08:33,166
<i>Our capacity to kill is
getting completely out of hand.</i>

1231
01:08:34,967 --> 01:08:38,286
<i>We see the wars that are
taking place now in Syria.</i>

1232
01:08:38,326 --> 01:08:41,567
<i>We talk about ISIS.
It's nothing new.</i>

1233
01:08:41,606 --> 01:08:44,086
<i> Part of the reason</i>
<i>you had cases like Rwanda,</i>

1234
01:08:44,127 --> 01:08:47,086
<i>and Cambodia, and Biafra,
and Darfur, and Bosnia,</i>

1235
01:08:47,127 --> 01:08:50,207
<i>and all these things,
is that it's not at all clear</i>

1236
01:08:50,246 --> 01:08:52,446
that if you participate
in such crimes,

1237
01:08:52,486 --> 01:08:56,486
you'll actually pay for them.
Again and again and again and again,

1238
01:08:56,526 --> 01:08:57,807
<i>people got away with it.</i>

1239
01:08:57,847 --> 01:08:59,927
And that's terrible.
That's absolutely terrible.

1240
01:08:59,967 --> 01:09:02,446
Without history,
there is no memory.

1241
01:09:02,487 --> 01:09:04,326
Without memory,
there is no future.

1242
01:09:04,366 --> 01:09:06,166
If we don't learn
from the past,

1243
01:09:06,207 --> 01:09:07,926
we repeat
the same mistakes again.

1244
01:09:07,967 --> 01:09:11,046
Jews will not replace us!

1245
01:09:11,086 --> 01:09:13,926
Jews will not replace us!

1246
01:09:21,246 --> 01:09:23,927
<i> If we can send</i>
<i>a powerful message</i>

1247
01:09:23,967 --> 01:09:26,767
<i>that there is no statute
of limitations on genocide,</i>

1248
01:09:26,807 --> 01:09:30,687
it could have an impact
on preventing individuals

1249
01:09:30,727 --> 01:09:35,127
<i>from risking prosecution,
even at the end of their lives.</i>

1250
01:09:59,967 --> 01:10:02,047
I wanted Groening desperately

1251
01:10:02,086 --> 01:10:05,087
to be convicted
of this terrible act,

1252
01:10:06,527 --> 01:10:08,047
<i>but I have come
to the conclusion</i>

1253
01:10:08,087 --> 01:10:10,687
<i>that I don't want
to see him go to jail.</i>

1254
01:10:13,006 --> 01:10:15,006
<i>I feel that
the important thing</i>

1255
01:10:15,046 --> 01:10:16,567
<i>is that
he should be convicted,</i>

1256
01:10:16,607 --> 01:10:18,966
<i>and he should go back
to this town,</i>

1257
01:10:19,007 --> 01:10:21,087
<i>where he lived for 70 years,</i>

1258
01:10:21,126 --> 01:10:23,807
<i>where everybody knew
what he did,</i>

1259
01:10:23,846 --> 01:10:25,486
<i>and where he was.</i>

1260
01:10:25,526 --> 01:10:27,967
<i>And people should see him
walk on the street and say,</i>

1261
01:10:28,006 --> 01:10:29,887
<i>"There goes Oskar Groening,</i>

1262
01:10:29,926 --> 01:10:33,286
<i>the man who got convicted in
the murder of 300,000 people."</i>

1263
01:10:35,846 --> 01:10:37,727
<i>Well, he is all we have.</i>

1264
01:10:37,766 --> 01:10:40,806
<i>And if we want
to establish a precedent,</i>

1265
01:10:40,846 --> 01:10:43,206
<i>a new law that in the future</i>

1266
01:10:43,246 --> 01:10:45,567
<i>will not allow guilty</i>

1267
01:10:45,606 --> 01:10:48,886
to escape on technicalities,
we do it through him.

1268
01:10:57,246 --> 01:10:59,206
An extraordinary moment
in Germany

1269
01:10:59,246 --> 01:11:01,446
when the sins of World War II
finally caught up

1270
01:11:01,486 --> 01:11:03,686
with a man known as the
"Accountant of Auschwitz."

1271
01:11:03,727 --> 01:11:06,246
He was convicted and sentenced
to four years in prison,

1272
01:11:06,286 --> 01:11:09,126
in what is likely
one of the last Nazi trials

1273
01:11:09,166 --> 01:11:10,286
we will ever witness.

1274
01:11:13,806 --> 01:11:17,326
Of course the
verdict is not very surprising.

1275
01:11:17,366 --> 01:11:20,246
But we will re-examine
the details of the case.

1276
01:11:20,846 --> 01:11:24,847
It was emotional.

1277
01:11:24,887 --> 01:11:26,606
Thank you.

1278
01:11:26,647 --> 01:11:29,407
The fact that
he only got four years,

1279
01:11:29,446 --> 01:11:31,406
I think with the same effort,

1280
01:11:31,447 --> 01:11:33,407
the judge could have
given him 100 years.

1281
01:11:33,446 --> 01:11:37,726
<i>I don't expect that he is
ever going to be in a jail.</i>

1282
01:11:37,766 --> 01:11:40,406
<i> This is for</i>
<i>future generations,</i>

1283
01:11:40,446 --> 01:11:42,646
<i>for all those people</i>

1284
01:11:42,687 --> 01:11:45,087
<i>who are still
murdering people</i>

1285
01:11:45,126 --> 01:11:47,086
<i>because they are
different color,</i>

1286
01:11:47,126 --> 01:11:49,567
<i>different tribe,
different religion.</i>

1287
01:11:49,606 --> 01:11:52,687
It is for them to know
that judgment,

1288
01:11:52,727 --> 01:11:54,647
no matter
how long it will take,

1289
01:11:54,687 --> 01:11:55,846
will catch up with them.

1290
01:12:08,006 --> 01:12:12,046
My being a witness
was like putting a bouquet

1291
01:12:12,086 --> 01:12:15,086
on the non-existent grave
of my parents.

1292
01:12:15,126 --> 01:12:19,607
I feel that my loved ones
who were murdered

1293
01:12:19,647 --> 01:12:23,366
finally got some justice.

1294
01:12:23,406 --> 01:12:26,606
That my murdered
mother and father

1295
01:12:26,646 --> 01:12:29,087
now, perhaps,

1296
01:12:29,686 --> 01:12:31,366
can rest in peace.

1297
01:12:43,487 --> 01:12:46,806
I feel tremendous elation

1298
01:12:46,846 --> 01:12:50,926
in the fact that I am sitting
in a German court,

1299
01:12:51,846 --> 01:12:53,566
<i>with my daughter,</i>

1300
01:12:53,606 --> 01:12:55,566
<i>with my granddaughter,</i>

1301
01:12:55,606 --> 01:12:57,406
<i>which proves that we,</i>

1302
01:12:57,446 --> 01:13:01,086
like the eternal phoenix,

1303
01:13:01,126 --> 01:13:04,686
<i>rise again from
the Holocaust ashes,</i>

1304
01:13:04,727 --> 01:13:06,326
<i>that we can survive.</i>
           
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